Pat Tillman: Hero or Wasted Life : AZ IMC

There is no doubt about the bravery of Pat Tillman or his idealism in resigning from a lucrative career in the National Football League after 9-11 to, as he perceived the situation, protect America and fight the terrorists responsible for this spectacular, deadly attack on American soil. However, soldiers all through history have exhibited great courage in combat, although often fighting for mistaken, spurious reasons or even against their own best interests. I know there were many German soldiers in World War 2 who were fervent believers in fascism and willingly sacrificed themselves for an ideology which cost tens of millions of lives, lead to the death camps and devastated the continent of Europe. The same could be said of Japan's kamikaze pilots. Their sacrifice was exceedingly brave, but was their emperor really that close to God. The German and Japanese media certainly attempted to make heroes of these men. There were many true believers among the Protestants and Catholics who fought one another in the bloody Thirty Years War and exterminated about sixty percent of the population of northern Europe. Naturally, the kings and nobles had their own economic and political interests in these religious wars. Are all these people heroes simply because they were courageous in battle or possessed an ardent belief in their mission or ideology?

Pat Tillman obviously didn't realize that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were planned long before 9-11 occurred and both were intimately connected to US control of oil reserves, rather than to any so-called war on terrorism. He was probably oblivious to the fact that terrorism has been used before in history as an excuse for wars of aggression, perpetrated for other reasons. Hitler used the excuses of communist terrorism and terrorism against Germans for his annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia. Ronald Reagan had his own war against terrorism in Central America in order to defeat socialist revolutions there, which were a threat to the capitalist system. Our own American revolutionaries were considered to be terrorists by the British. Using fear as a means of manipulation and control is nothing new.

Therefore, Pat Tillman was not defending the American people, as he imagined, but by participating in a war against the innocent people of Afghanistan and Iraq was actually increasing the anger and resentment towards the United States and raising the probability of another terrorist attack on the US mainland, rather than diminishing such a probability. He may just as well have worn the company logos of Chevron-Texaco and Exxon-Mobil on his uniform as the US flag because this is who he really was fighting for, as well as the weapons manufacturers and companies like Halliburton and Bechtel. 9-11 was the fear-inspiring event that George W. Bush cynically utilized to pursue his real agenda of corporate domination and profiteering.

In my opinion, the real heroes are people like Ron Kovic, Stan Goff and other veterans who have taken the time and effort to discover the truth about recent wars and the nature of imperialism. They are willing to oppose US interventions in other countries and suffer the ridicule and disapprobation of American society for challenging some of its most cherished myths-myths like the continuous glorification of war and the supposition that American troops always fight for noble goals like freedom and democracy. They also attempt to educate military personnel and that is essential in stopping this scourge of war. People are heroes for fighting against the real ills afflicting humanity like slavery, racism, oppression and injustice, not for fighting for myths created by a ruling class intent on wars for their own benefit. That is simply a wasted life.

The glaring hypocrisy of the US corporate media in its hero worship is easily illustrated by the Spanish Civil War. American soldiers, such as those in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, fought fascism in Spain and the troops and modern weapons of Hitler and Mussolini years before World War 2 started. They exhibited extraordinary courage in fighting tanks and airplanes with small arms and outdated artillery. Were these brave American soldiers of the "greatest American generation" called heroes in the US corporate media? No, they were either ignored or labeled "premature antifascists." Some were even hounded by the FBI for years after World War 2 and lost job after job for being leftists. Every American knows about the heroes of the Normandy landing on D-day, but ask an average American if they have ever heard of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Obviously, the criteria for who is deemed worthy of being depicted as a hero by the US corporate media are determined purely on economic and political motivations and not on actual courage or sacrifice, as the corporate media so pompously pretend.

I knew the instant I learned that Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan that the corporate media were going to make a propaganda extravaganza out of his death, lasting days, if not weeks. After all, MSNBC calls every American soldier killed in Iraq a "hero" and has a whole wall dedicated to them with photos of the deceased soldiers. From time to time the hosts relate little stories about these soldiers' lives to their audience. No mention is given to poisonous effects of the US military's use of depleted uranium on the health of other potential "heroes." Little emphasis is placed on Iraqi casualties or the great suffering and misery of the Iraqi people. Neither the Pentagon nor the corporate media keep an accounting of the Iraqi dead and wounded. Of course, the insinuation here is that only American lives matter and the Iraqis are subhuman, much as Goebbels depicted the Jews and Slavs.

It has been my perception from watching war after war involving the United States that the corporate media always attempt to glorify each and every war and build public support for it, no matter how ridiculous the justifications for the war or how illegal, immoral and destructive the war happens to be. That glorification is probably the greatest evil perpetrated by the US corporate media and very dangerous to humanity's survival in an age of nuclear weapons. However, it is understandable, when one considers many of these media corporations are owned by weapons manufacturers.

Rot in hell you stupid fucking faggot!! I hope your fucking family is killed by a bunch of towel heads.

Your article (I use the term loosely) only serves to display your ignorance and left wing idiotic thinking. Hmm, I wonder if you would walk away from millions to fight for something you believed to be right and just...doubt it. The media didn't have to "create" a hero out of Pat Tillman - Pat Tillman embodies everything a hero is because he had integrity, loyalty and a sense of courage that is seriously lacking in most people today.

If we have any hope of electing Kerry in November, some of you extremists are going to have to back off pulling things like putting down someone like Pat Tillman. You need to respect the feelings of other people more. This just gives the right wingers fuel for their fire. It almost makes me wonder if they are right.
Dissing someone like Tillman is a disgrace. Keep up stuff like this, and I'll be turning a 180 and voting for Bush...

just saw this syndicated article on Townhall.com , a self
described conservative news site.

ignore the stuff about the death of the NFL player. Look at how it
references an erroneous article about donations to the IMC. If all
100+ IMCs each got grants from the Soros & Heinz supported Tides
Foundation, maybe then that $376,000 number may be real. But this
article is doing the same as the Frontpage Magazine article: trying to
tie presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee John F. Kerry to an
organization they call extremist. By the article's own admission,
only 6 IMCs covered this particular story on the open newswire, yet it
blames the network on the comments posted questioning the heroics of
a man who died defending US corporate expansion.

Does anyone know where Frontpage gets that number from? Is anyone
surprised that one "news" source can make up a stat & then see it used
as fact by other outlets?

-m

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20040428.shtml
Pat Tillman: Dumb jock, baby killer?
Ben Shapiro

April 28, 2004

What would you call Pat Tillman, the former Arizona Cardinal football
player killed in Afghanistan? A hero? An inspiring example of
American military men and women? A model of principled strength?

How about a "dumb jock"? A "baby killer"? A "dumb-a--"? A victim of "brainwashing"?

If you were a regular reader of Indymedia.org, odds are that you'd put him in the latter group. You'd think that Pat Tillman was a boob, a complete dimwit at best -- you might even believe that Pat Tillman was an evil person and deserved what he got.

Indymedia.org has 50 local chapters in the United States. Forty-four of them made no mention of Pat Tillman's death. The other six celebrated it.

The Portland, Ore., chapter of Indymedia.org posted the news of Tillman's death accompanied by this headline: "Dumb Jock Killed in Afghanistan." Some who posted comments suggested alternate titles for the piece, like "Privileged Millionaire, Blinded by Nationalist Mythology, Pisses Away the Good Life," "Cottled Sports Star Allows Nationalism to Foster Jingoistic Irresponsibility Resulting in His Death," and "Capitalist Chooses to Kill Innocents Instead of Cashing Check."

Others made comments on the site comparing Tillman to a Nazi and accusing him of responsibility for "the deaths of hundreds, maybe thousands of Afghan civilians." "Karma sure is a b----, isn't it, Tillman?" one sneered.

The Urbana-Champaign, Ill., chapter of Indymedia.org posted two articles about Tillman. One carried the headline "Pat Tillman is gone good riddance." The other labeled all soldiers "dumb-a--(es)."

The North Carolina Indymedia chapter also posted a piece labeling soldiers like Tillman "dumb-a--(es)" and added that Tillman was killed during a "baby-killing raid." San Francisco Indymedia posted the same piece. St. Louis Indymedia stated that Tillman was "brainwashed by the 'patriotism.'"

One commenter on the Washington, D.C., Indymedia site wrote this: "I
saw the Post this morning, on the front page. It was sickening. They
built this guy up like he was Audie Murphy or something, publishing
this foto of him in his Ranger getup, all tough-looking and
stony-jawed, like a goddamn' recruiting ad ... Puke-o-rama. Cold as
it may sound, 'Dumb Jock Dies for Pipeline in Afghanistan' pretty
much sums it up."

What is Indymedia? According to its Web site, "Indymedia is a
collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of
journalists offering grass-roots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia
is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate
and passionate tellings of truth." Indymedia is made up of leaders in
the anti-globalization and anti-war movement, coordinating massive
protests. They revel in wild conspiracy theories. They're rabidly
anti-capitalist and generally anti-American. In short, they're a
bunch of left-wing nuts.

Yet the American left has neglected to excise the Indymedia cancer
from its support base. In 2002, the left-leaning Ford Foundation gave
Indymedia $50,000. The Tides Foundation has donated $376,000 to
Indymedia, according to Frontpagemag.com. Two of the biggest donors
to the Tides Foundation? George Soros, who has given over $15 million
to Democratic causes during this election cycle, and Teresa Heinz
Kerry. Ralph Nader is one of Indymedia's biggest supporters; his
group, Public Citizen, is listed as on Indymedia.org as an "ally."

Indymedia is no small-potatoes venture. Aside from its Web sites based in 50 major American markets, it also has Web sites located in five chapters in Africa, 13 in Canada, 39 in Europe, 15 in Latin America, eight in Asia, and nine in Oceania.

The Indymedia list of allies is impressive as well. It lists groups like Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, Adbusters, ZNet, the Institute for Public Accuracy, and Corporate Watch.

Largely due to an unceasing hatred for President Bush, the American political left continues to support Indymedia and its ilk. During the MoveOn.org Hitler-Bush ad scandal, liberal pundits largely refused to condemn the ads. Democratic Underground, a site linked on John Kerry's official blog, constantly pushes an extreme leftism often encroaching into paranoid territory.

This latest outrage underscores the leftist community's tolerance for an ugly, radical element. The Pat Tillman insults have been floating around the Web for days; the liberal silence is deafening. Tillman died to protect freedom of speech -- that doesn't mean anyone should use it to spit on his grave.

©2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

I cant belive what I am reading here.You fucking asshole ant-war pussys should thank god there's pepole like Pat Tillman .If your so opposed to everything this country does and stands for GET THE FUCK OUT. dONT BITCH WHINE AND POINT A ACCUSING FINGER . GET THE FUCK OUT ,LEAVE .GO LIVE IN SOME SHITHOLE 3RD WORLD COUNTRY WHERE THINGS ARE ARE LIKE A FUCKING NIGHTMARE.Pat Tillman and pepole like him is what make this country great.If were not fighting those 'fucking sand niggers ovr there they'd be gassing us and our children killing them in the streets, our schools .He turned down the American dream to keep me and YOU safe at night .i am totally appauled at the way this ignorant and shady website depicted him SHAME SHAAME AND SHAME AGAIN ON YOU.I will thank pat the rest of my life for what he did and i suggest you do the same .Hero oih I think so .sO AS THE TITLE SAYS "PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS'

gOD HELP US ALL........................................

Do these right-wingers have a mad-lib or something? One hopes that their logic isn't really stuck in this pathetic state. Truly disturbing. As for the hope for Kerry... who cares is Kerry is elected? Some seem to have hope Kerry is elected, I just have no hope for either of them. Fuck this jock and his whole special forces unit. I hope they all get it.

Move to china whith the rest of the commies ricky.

You can thank SPC Tillman for your right to free speech. If it were not for men and women like him who place there lives on the line daily, you would not enjoy this sacred priveledge.

What the fuck do you think would happen if the US disbanded it's military? The fucking heathen savages would overrun this nation in a heartbeat, and pussies like you would let it happen.

You can believe whatever convoluted conspiracy theory you so desire, it's a free country. SPC Tillman died fighting terrorists in Afghanistan, the spawning ground from which 19 murderers killed 3000 of your fellow citizens.

He was a noble man because he had the courage and moral fortitude to walk away from millions of dollars and fame to become a regular enlisted infantryman. I admire those qualities. Cocksuckers like you have no right to piss on his grave.

BTW, I am exibiting MY RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH by telling you to fuck off and die a long slow miserable disease ridden death.

You back stabbing fucking bed wetting liberal panty waste. Fuck you. You are lucky 'scumbag baby killers' like him put their life in harm's way to protect you. When the ragheads start blowing up your kids at the bus stop one morning, all I can say is your ONLY hope will be that some more 'scumbag baby killers' are once again willing to put their lives on the line for your sorry ass.

You should be ashamed. Very ashamed.

Your welcome
by An American Serviceman Wednesday, Apr. 28, 2004 at 2:03 PM

Thanks to SPC Tillman and many, many others, your free to speak your mind. Just remember that the freedoms you still have today are protected and fought for by my Brothers and Sisters in arms. Together as a family, an ALL VOLUNTEER military family are willing to lay our lives on the line for you and every other American. Even though you don't seem to appreciate the daily scarifies we make, your still welcome.

Proudly serving my country since 1979

Court Martial in Iraq
April 28, 2004

Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.

But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.

It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report.

Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq -- and possible prison time.
Correspondent Dan Rather talks to one of those soldiers. And, for the first time, 60 Minutes II will show some of the pictures that led to the Army investigation.
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According to the U.S. Army, one Iraqi prisoner was told to stand on a box with his head covered, wires attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

It was this picture, and dozens of others, that prompted an investigation by the U.S. Army. On Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, what went wrong.

“Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few,” says Kimmitt. “Every day, we love our soldiers, but frankly, some days we're not always proud of our soldiers."

For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who were taken to the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It was the centerpiece of Saddam’s empire of fear, and those prisoners who did make it out told nightmarish tales of torture beyond imagining – and executions without reason.

60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared pictures of what Americans did there with two men who have extensive interrogation experience: Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau Chief Bob Baer.

"I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was the most awful sight I've ever seen. I said, ‘If there's ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's because of Abu Ghraib,'” says Baer. “There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place."

"We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage,” says Cowan.
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It was American soldiers serving as military police at Abu Ghraib who took these pictures. The investigation started when one soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II has a dozen of these pictures, and there are many more – pictures that show Americans, men and women in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners.

There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English.

In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up.

60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the soldiers facing charges. But the Army says they are all in Iraq, awaiting court martial.

"What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and others who are going to see this and take it personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad.

"The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down,” says Kimmitt.

“Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well."

“So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."
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One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick.

Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

“We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."

Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as “one of the best.”

Frederick says Americans came into the prison: “We had military intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA ... All those that I didn't even know or recognize."

Frederick's letters and email messages home also offer clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the interrogators:

"Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "

"They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."

"We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."
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According to the Army’s own investigation, that’s what was happening. The Army found that interrogators asked reservists working in the prison to prepare the Iraqi detainees, physically and mentally, for questioning.

“What, if any actions, are being taken against the interrogators?

"I hope the investigation is including not only the people who committed the crimes, but some of the people that might have encouraged these crimes as well,” says Kimmitt. “Because they certainly share some level of responsibility as well."

But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib are facing criminal charges. In fact, a number of them are civilians, and military law doesn’t apply to them.

One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was questioned by the Army, and he told investigators he had "broken several tables during interrogations, unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" prisoners. He denied hurting anyone.

In our phone conversation, 60 Minutes II asked Frederick whether he had seen any prisoners beaten.

“I saw things. We had to use force sometimes to get the inmates to cooperate, just like our rules of engagement said,” says Frederick. “We learned a little bit of Arabic, basic commands. And they didn't want to listen, so sometimes, you would just give them a little nudge or something like that just to get them to cooperate so we could get the mission accomplished."

Attorney Gary Myers and a judge advocate in Iraq are defending Frederick. They say he should never have been charged, because of the failure of his commanders to provide proper training and standards.

"The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating,” says Myers. “And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. ... And helping people they view as important."

Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers who didn't get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular Army members.

Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: “There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates."

Rather asked Kimmitt about understaffing. "That doesn't condone individual acts of criminal behavior no matter how tired we are. No matter how stretched we are, that doesn't give us license and it doesn't give us the authority to break the law,” says Kimmitt.

“That may have been a contributing factor, but at the end of the day, this is probably more about leadership, supervision, setting standards, abiding by the Army values and understanding what's right, and having the guts to say what's right.”
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Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky ran Abu Ghraib for the Army. She was also in charge of three other Army prison facilities that housed thousands of Iraqi inmates.

The Army investigation determined that her lack of leadership and clear standards led to problems system wide. Karpinski talked with 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft last October at Abu Ghraib, before any of this came out.

"This is international standards,” said Karpinski. “It's the best care available in a prison facility."

But the Army investigation found serious problems behind the scenes. The Army has photographs that show a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. Frederick said that dogs were “used for intimidation factors.”

Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."

There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten.

"It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a picture of that situation,” says Kimmitt.

But what about the situation itself?

“I don't know the facts surrounding what caused the bruising and the bleeding,” says Kimmitt. “If that is also one of the charges being brought against the soldiers, that too is absolutely unacceptable and completely outside of what we expect of our soldiers and our guards at the prisons."

Is there any indication that similar actions may have happened at other prisons? “I'd like to sit here and say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that we're aware of, but we know that there have been some other ones since we've been here in Iraq,” says Kimmitt.
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When Saddam ran Abu Ghraib prison, Iraqis were too afraid to come ask for information on their family members.

When 60 Minutes II was there last month, hundreds had gathered outside the gates, worried about what is going on inside.

"We will be paid back for this. These people at some point will be let out,” says Cowan. “Their families are gonna know. Their friends are gonna know."

This is a hard story to have to tell when Americans are fighting and dying in Iraq. And for Cowan, it’s a personal issue. His son is an infantry soldier serving in Iraq for the last four months.

Rather asked Cowan what he would say to "that person who is sitting in their living room and saying, ‘I wish they wouldn't do this. It's undermining our troops and they shouldn't do it.’"

"If we don't tell this story, these kinds of things will continue. And we'll end up getting paid back 100 or 1,000 times over,” says Cowan. “Americans want to be proud of each and everything that our servicemen and women do in Iraq. We wanna be proud. We know they're working hard. None of us, now, later, before or during this conflict, should wanna let incidents like this just pass."

Kimmitt says the Army will not let what happened at Abu Ghraib just pass. What does he think is the most important thing for Americans to know about what has happened?

"I think two things. No. 1, this is a small minority of the military, and No. 2, they need to understand that is not the Army,” says Kimmitt. “The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values, and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals, but by God, it doesn't reflect my army."

Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.

© MMIV, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.

To the person who said to get out of the country if we didnt like the ruled and stuff. Screw you, why should we be driven out of this country by big headed, ego tripping assholes like you. We wont leave EVER. We will keep fighting for a change no matter what.

TO THE RIGHT WING:

Well, I ain't no pacifist liberal. I'm packin' and know how to shoot to defend what really matters - and it ain't racist, revisionist, capitalist propaganda about freedom, that's for sure. We haven't brought freedom to Afghanistan. And if there is a relationship between killing Afghanis and freedom, all I can see is that it's taken away mine, because I have less freedom now than I had before you military-industrialist (i.e., socialist) right wingers started the war with terrorism by funding the anti-soviet jihad of the very "towel heads" you now denounce, you racist, opportunist asshole. Be careful what you wish for, fascist, you just might get it. And America did get what it asked for. You just forgot what the question was. That ain't my fault - but it does prove what a short-term memory you have. Try turning off the O'Reilly Factor for some clarity.

The chickens are coming home to roost, sucka, and you reap what you sow. You can keep denying it till the cows come home, but the fox is in the henhouse, baby.

And, just so you understand, for the purposes of these analogies, the chickens are terrorism (sponsored by America when convenient), reaping is also terrorism (for the same reason), and the cows coming home is also terrorism - again, for the same reason. The fox is American capitalism and the henhouse is your ass, idiot, which you aren't smart enough to know from your elbow, else you'd realize how this world really works.

Fuck America and fuck all you racist patriots. Sucka emcees...

From,
A gun-toting, anti-government, anti-capitalist, anti-racist.

First of to all of you who think Pat Tilliman is some dumb jock, you all are sadly wrong. Pat Tilliman graduated from Arizona State in 1997 with a marketing degree, which only took him 3 and one half years to get. He also graduated summa cum laude with a 3.84 GPA. To anyone who writes on this site as a journalist, how long did it take you to get your degree? Most definitely longer.
Second, how many people in this world would turn down a 3.6 million-dollar contract to make less then 18 thousand dollars a year? $17,316 to be precise. Which is what Pat Tilliman did. The next question I would ask is why somebody would do this? His response which he gave on NFL Films was this, "I play football, and it just seem so goddam-it is- unimportant compared to everything that's taken place... I feel guilty even having the damn interview... My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and a lot of my family has gone and fought in wars, and I really haven't done a damn thing...."
Who was Pat Tilliman, what was he? That is for you to decided that is the beauty of living in America. As for me I think by now you know how I felt about him. But let me end in quoting Elizabeth McKenrick, the wife of 4th Ranger Training Battalion Commander Terry McKenrick. She usually won't let her three kids watch the news on the war or she won't be able to convince her kids that their dad is coming home. But when she heard the TV report on Pat Tilliman she called her nine-year-old to her side. "Listen," she said. "Listen to the story of what this man did." Back to my own words, we all should honor this fallen hero.

A Ranger Died Today

He was getting old and grouchy
and his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the Legion,
telling stories of the past.

Of a war that he had fought in
and the deeds that he had done.
In his exploits with his buddies;
they were heroes, everyone.

And 'tho sometimes, to his neighbors,
his tales became old hat,
all his buddies listened,
for they knew whereof he spoke.

But we'll hear his tales no longer,
for ol' Lou has passed away,
and the world's a little poorer,
for a Ranger died today.

No, he won't be mourned by many,
just his children and his wife.
For he lived an ordinary,
very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family,
quietly going on his way;
and the world won't note his passing;
'tho a Ranger died today.

When politicians leave this earth,
their bodies lie in state,
while thousands note their passing
and proclaim that they were great.

Papers tell of their life stories,
from the time that they were young,
but the passing of a Ranger,
goes unnoticed, and unsung.

Is the greatest contribution,
to the welfare of our land,
some jerk who breaks his promise
and cons his fellow man?

Or the ordinary fellow,
who in times of war and strife,
goes off to serve his Country
and offers up his life?

The politician's stipend
and the style in which he lives,
are sometimes disproportionate,
to the service he gives.

While the ordinary Ranger,
who offered up his all,
is paid off with a medal
and perhaps a pension, small.

It's so easy to forget them,
for it is so long ago,
that our Lou's and Tom's and Johnny's,
went to battle, but we know.

It was not the politicians,
with their compromise and ploys,
who won for us the freedom,
that our Country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger,
with your enemies at hand,
would you really want some cop-out,
with his ever waffling stand?

Or would you want a Ranger,
who has sworn to defend,
his home, his kin, and Country,
and would fight until the end?

He was just a common Ranger
and his ranks are growing thin,
but his presence should remind us,
we may need his like again.

For when countries are in conflict,
then we find the Ranger's part,
Is to clean up all the tousles,
that the politicians start.

If we cannot do him honor,
while he's here to hear the praise,
then at least let's give him homage,
at the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline,
in the paper that might say:

OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING,
FOR A RANGER DIED TODAY.

-- Author unknown

God Speed Brother...

what did we sow to recieve 911 asshole your probilily a fuckin towlhead am i correct ricky?

This is what democracy looks like!

The arthor of this article and the website that posted are prime examples of the need of the Ultra-Liberal Left to smear and finger point. I should write a counter article using the same kind of shoddy journalism refutting this fecal matter and see just how many sites like this one would have the testicles to publish it.

"...Pat Tillman obviously didn't realize that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were planned long before 9-11 occurred and both were intimately connected to US control of oil reserves, rather than to any so-called war on terrorism..."

And where are his soruces for making his statement? Oh, Yeah.... I forgot... They are all "Confidential Sources". I have not see any reliable documents that proves his point. Please list them...

"...Hitler used the excuses of communist terrorism and terrorism against Germans for his annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia...."

Hmmm compair the US to Hilter. Over used and tired. But if this was really true, you would already be in a camp somewhere waiting to be gassed. Oh... But I'm sure you are going to now say that there are secret camps...

"... Ronald Reagan had his own war against terrorism in Central America in order to defeat socialist revolutions there, which were a threat to the capitalist system...."

How many American service members were killed in those actions? Which country did we send a force into and liberate? Oh... That must be the same country where we hide our secret camps in...

"... Our own American revolutionaries were considered to be terrorists by the British. Using fear as a means of manipulation and control is nothing new.... "

Apples and oranges. It seems you reached up to your elbow for that one. That happened way over 200 years ago. Lets keep the discussion to the 20th Century please.

"...Therefore, Pat Tillman was not defending the American people, as he imagined, but by participating in a war against the innocent people of Afghanistan and Iraq was actually increasing the anger and resentment towards the United States and raising the probability of another terrorist attack on the US mainland, rather than diminishing such a probability..."

I guess you are the same guy that would send aid to keep the terriorists appeased... Hmmm are you related to Churchill in any way?

"...The glaring hypocrisy of the US corporate media in its hero worship is easily illustrated by the Spanish Civil War. American soldiers, such as those in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, fought fascism in Spain and the troops and modern weapons of Hitler and Mussolini years before World War 2 started. They exhibited extraordinary courage in fighting tanks and airplanes with small arms and outdated artillery. Were these brave American soldiers of the "greatest American generation" called heroes in the US corporate media? No, they were either ignored or labeled "premature antifascists." Some were even hounded by the FBI for years after World War 2 and lost job after job for being leftists. Every American knows about the heroes of the Normandy landing on D-day, but ask an average American if they have ever heard of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Obviously, the criteria for who is deemed worthy of being depicted as a hero by the US corporate media are determined purely on economic and political motivations and not on actual courage or sacrifice, as the corporate media so pompously pretend... "

Can't have it both ways. Either the US Servicemen of that time were moronic dupes like you are saying Mr. Tillman is, or they are heros just like Mr. Tillman is. But thats right... You live in a different world then the rest of us. That world is the Ultra Liberal Fantacy Land where little wood elves run around and if you click your ruby slippers you can go back home to Kansas.

"...After all, MSNBC calls every American soldier killed in Iraq a "hero" and has a whole wall dedicated to them with photos of the deceased soldiers..."

As well they should. I guess you would like to take everyone back to the 60's. Hey, tell ya what. Why don't you go down and meet some of the returning troops and spit and yell "Baby Killers" to them now? I would love to be there to document the beating you get. That was then... This is NOW! You are trying to relive a hippy past that is dead... Let it rest in peace. Do not smear the name of any service member who makes the ultiment sacrifice for his country. Go ahead and attack the politicians if you want... they are still alive to defend themselves...

"...From time to time the hosts relate little stories about these soldiers' lives to their audience. No mention is given to poisonous effects of the US military's use of depleted uranium on the health of other potential "heroes."..."

Again... Attack the politicians. They are the ones who sent the soldiers over with the "Evil Weapons". I would hope that you could actually do some good at getting the Veterans Administration to speed up their compensation for the people who get sick for the use of "DU" rounds. But why would you do that for the "Evil" American baby killers?

I will stop here as I'm confident that anyone not in a doped up haze wanting to relive the 60's will see that your article is a bunch of garbage.

I hope next payday when you get the paycheck for slandering a man like Mr. Tillman that you remember that you have the "Right" to print this crap smearing a man who died defending the ideals that keeps you out of those evil secret camps. But I'm hoping that you actually get to file a report from one of those secret camps to really let us know what is like.

I love how the single incident of this jock joining the military becomes more important than what he was SPECIFICALLY doing to protect freedom after he joined. If ya'll know, please tell me, because your generalities tell me nothing. It's as if merely joining up in itself protects freedom, regardless of what specific operations one takes part in. I don't know any Afghani who has tried to take my freedom away and I think it wouldn't be too hard to find a lot of people on the receiving end of US foreign policy, courtesy of the US military, who would disagree with the assumption that that organization is primarily a defender of freedom.

Thanks American GI!
For protecting the US from these people.

Hey Ricky,
by Jay Crum Thursday, Apr. 29, 2004 at 1:20 AM
1812 Hamilton- Carrollton TX

Hey Ricky,

I wish people like you would post your address- I would love to speak with you face to face about Pat Tillman. Of course you won't... you're a keyboard brawler- thats it. Instead, why don't you just post a picture of yourself. I am pretty sure I already know what you look like. Probably 135-140 pounds, meek and sickly,virgin and vegan- still living at home with mom and dad.

People like Pat are the reason you have the ability to live at home until your 32, Ricky.

Jay

I feel upset that a person will look down and berate someone for their beliefs and sacrifice. Pat Tillman believed so strongly in Freedom that he joined up and unfotunately, gave his life. Do you have something that you believe that strongly in? Would you give your life for your beliefs? Would any of your friends (provided they are real) die for you? Would you for them? Soldiers have many reasons for joining and many more for staying. One thing you should realize: Without the military, you would not/could not speak as you do, type as you do, no freedoms at all. You can talk about a government all you want. I do not like all my leaders, but I did not sign up for them. I signed up in '91. There were no conflicts at the time. I am on my 3rd president and yet I still serve, again I serve my country not the man in charge. I wish you would have served or would serve. Your eyes would be opened by what you see, where you go, who you're with, what you do, and how you get what you get. Then you could talk smack, because youwould have Been There, Done That. I guarantee you would not talk about a troop's sacrifice. You could still spout off about the government, but you would have a healthy respect for the soldiers sailors, and airman who go in harm's way so you can feel good about yourself by being "rebellious". Don't be a TOOL for those who do not know better. And please do not disrespect those who cannot defend themselves from your attacks. You only make yourself seem uneducated and moronic. You have become something to laugh at and I pity you. Just my 2 cents.

What is it that this article intended to accomplish? Did it intend to disgrace Pat Tillman? Did it intend to put down the notion that he’s a hero? Did it intend to protest the war? I would say that this columnist has done a remarkable job of stating his opinions, no matter how misinformed they might be.

You see, I am a veteran. I served the United States of America during the first gulf war… do you remember that one, where Saddam Hussein sent his troops to conquer Kuwait, to kill all who stood in his way, to rape the women and take the country for everything it was worth in an effort to expand his own resources. Do you remember the threat he posed to Saudi Arabia and other neighboring countries? I remember, but you probably don’t.

How about this: Do you remember the thousands of people Saddam killed after that war? Those people who tried to start a revolution and were put down rather quickly. Or how about the Kurds who were being persecuted for just being Kurds. Do you remember them?

Probably not.

Do you remember that in 1993, when Saddam tried to have the first George Bush assassinated when he visited Kuwait? No? I remember, I was there. President Clinton ordered us to turn around and launch a military strike against military targets in Iraq in retaliation for what was an act of war. A war which did not end when Kuwait was freed. The victory conditions were met and fighting ended in a cease-fire agreement administered by the UN, forcing Saddam to come clean on his WMDs.

He never did and he violated that cease-fire agreement on many occasions… of course, you’ll never hear the politicians talk about that.

Do you remember what happened on September 11th, 2001? I would say that by what you’ve written, you seemed to have forgotten. Let me remind you. A man in Afghanistan whose name we’ve all come to know carried out an attack against the United States. Thousands of people died. Those people came from many different walks of life. Many different nations and religions were represented in those towers, but when it came down to it, they all died in the same fashion. Death does not discriminate.

Like many others, Tillman enlisted in the armed forces to do something about this threat. Tillman had a promising career ahead of him. 3 million dollars to play football, and an excellent GPA from college. He had it all… but it wasn’t important to him. What was important was that he wanted to do something for his country that would serve everyone, and not just football fans.

How many heroes are there in sports today? It’s not like it used to be, you know, where we had all-American boys and girls playing sports that we loved to watch and cheer on. There used to be a sense of pride when the hometown team won a championship. Where is that sense of pride today? I daresay it’s all become a game of finance… of money, power and greed. Sports stars are more interested in how much money they can make rather than how many fans that they can make a positive influence on. Tillman wasn’t like this, and his deeds made him a hero. The fact that he had a higher calling and turned down the money made him a hero. It takes a man of ambition and an overriding will to succeed and be the best you can be to become a Ranger. Tillman had that, and he gave that to his country, along with his life.

Protest the war all you want. If you don’t think Tillman was a hero, you are entitled to that opinion because men and women just like Tillman put their lives on hold and even paid the ultimate price to make sure you have that freedom to be a disgrace if you so desire. I was one of those people who gave you that freedom, and frankly, I would do it again if I could.

If you didn’t get anything out of this, at least understand this. Osama Bin Laden doesn’t care if you are for or against the war in Iraq. He doesn’t care which president you support. He, and those who follow him hate your way of life. Its just that simple. He doesn’t care who you are. You are associated with America, so you must die. That is his line of thought, and nothing you can say or do will change their opinion of you. Just because you are denouncing our foreign policies does not mean that any terrorist would exclude you from their goals. They would kill you just the same because you are not like them.

Remember that when you write another column about this subject. Remember those who gave some, and especially those who gave all. Yes, before you open up that word processor again, just sit back and think about it.

Well to be quite honest with you Ricky....

Unless you have been willing to serve anything other than your self you would not understand why.

Did the Afganhi people do something to harm America's Freedom? Well, I would name the Teliban as the ememy to America's Freedom as they support Al Quada. And Al Quada was behind numberous attacks against the American public. So they attacked the Freedom of everyone in the Twin Towers to be able to safely go to their place of business and make a living to feed their families.

So what does this have to do with the Afganhi People? Well, they allowed and supported (as a general population on as indivudals necessarily) the Teliban to come into power. They (many of the supporters) helped hide members of the Teliban and Al Quiada.

Now my question for you is... Did the Evil American Soldiers plan attacks on civilains to intentenionally inflict civilian casualties? If you answer yes to this then you are a fool.

Don't even bring up Iraq. That has been beat to death over WMD's... The bottom line is...

IRAQ DID HAVE and DID USE WMD's. The used it in the Iran/Iraq war as well as on the Kurds in the North and South. It was proven by the UN each time. He used them then... So who's to say he don't have them now. I would like to err on the side of prudance and say he still has them and has had 10 to 15 years to bury them anywhere. It would not surprise me to find out that they were shipped to a neighboring country. The fact that there has not been any found does not come into play... HE HAD THEM AND USED THEM BEFORE.

So how did the Government in Iraq infringe on American's Freedom? The same as the Teliban and Al Quiada... By sponsoring terrorist training camps and supporting terrorists attacks.

I don't disagree that maybe the US should not have attacked these countries... but for you to slam someone who served is just WRONG. Complain about the politicians... campaign against those that supported the sending of troops.... BUT dont shit on the troops for doing what they have sworn to do.

At least they have the integrity to back up their othes... unlike many of the politicians who sent them.

"In the images of celebrating Iraqis, we have also seen the ageless appeal of human freedom."
"...lies and intimidation could not make the Iraqi people love their oppressors or desire their own enslavement. Men and women in every culture need liberty like they need food, and water, and air. Everywhere that freedom arrives, humanity rejoices. And everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear."

I am curious, kb, why you are showing these images. Perhaps you can enlighten us without relying on quotes and slogans.

If the use of these images are to deter, then your goal is far from accomplished, as they will only enrage, and the rage will be directed at you.

I would ask that you come forth with your opinion directly, rather than to behave in this spinless fashion.

Are they running toward democray?

In the above picture, kb shows a family running in front of what looks like a tank. What kb fails to explain is that this the tank pictured in the background is Russian made. Surely there are no Russian tanks being used by coalition forces, are there?

kb's goal here is to paint a negative picture for you, as the person has not shown any pictures of Iraqis enjoying their freedom.

Again, the challenge to kb remains open: Explain yourself and what point you are trying to prove by displaying these pictures.

Tillman promoted posthumously
Associated Press
Apr. 29, 2004 12:10 PM

Pat Tillman has been promoted posthumously.

Army spokeswoman Martha Rudd says Tillman was promoted from specialist to corporal not just as a reward, but as a recognition of his leadership potential.

(more here)
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0429az-tillman-promotion29-ON.html

i guess your army couldn't recognized his "leadership potential" 'til he was dead.

Actually, the US Armed Forces do give out quite a few awards to service members who have died in the line of duty, not so much to the benifit of the soldier who has given his/her life for her country and those they were protecting, but more so as a way to honor that ultimate sacrifice.

"OF COURSE I AM ENJOYING MY FREEDOM, BOSS!"

I can't believe you actually had the nerve to write this so called piece of journalism!! How dare you disgrace the sacrifice made by brave US service men and women!! Pat Tillman did what he believed to be right...damn the cost or financial gain he felt that service to his country took priority. That is a man who exemplifies what this country used to be full of...Real honorable men!! It's the snivelling little sh!ts like you that are a disgrace! It is the likes of you and those who think as you that are going to be the downfall of this great nation. I could continue with my extreme disliking of your writing and thought process but that would be a waste of time. I shall merely conclude with F@*K YOU!!

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stuart Mill

"Are they running toward democray?"

No, they are running away from an IRAQI tank moron.

I guess you prefered things when the UN had control of the Iraqi situation. Millions dying of starvation, lack of proper medical care, and Saddam's rule. So much cleaner to starve them out of existance because you don't have to watch it on TV every night.

KB, yo are a fucking moron.

The truth is,USA Military killed daily basis in Iraq and else where for the oil to fill your SUV!!!!

pictures???????
by spongeknobsquaeballs Thursday, Apr. 29, 2004 at 10:11 AM

I see all these pics of afgans and iraqies running from tanks being pushed around etc...........Why dont you show the pics of the soldiers that were mutilated ,draged naked through town and other unspeakable acts done to them. i hardley see how pushing someone or moving them out of the way is so awful .But i do think that smashing someone s head in whith a rock ,dragging them naked through the streets cheering thier death is just the most awful thing to do .Hey ricky why dont u ask your mom if you could use the car and seek out the families of these MURDERED soldiers and explain how it never happend .how it was one big fantasy or conspirisy.if you condone this i feel really sorry for you and everyone connected to you .if you guyds show one side you should show the other.but you dont have the balls to do it .all your info is undocumented hypothisis not fact as you claim.

I have never advocated war except as a means for peace. Ulysses.S.Grant

If you right-wing nut-jobs could get your heads out of your asses long enough, I think you'd see just how stupid you all sound. You all pretend to love free speech so much, but your arguments sound like you could use a little diversity in your news sources. O'Reilly and Rush aren't telling you the whole truth, folks.

Plus, you all still haven't answered my question about just WHAT Tillman was doing to fight for freedom. Was he translating the Federalist Papers into various indigenous languages? Was he making printing presses? Seriously, is that what the Rangers do these days?

The Afghanis aren't free, last I checked, and the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, who you point to, were both supported by the US to varying degrees (a large degree in the case of the Taliban and Mujahadeen) right up until very recently. Likewise with Saddam Hussein, who was America's best boy in the Middle East when he gasses his own people. I don't expect those facts to resonate with you, since you all seem to have so little use for facts.

And I don't remember Bin Laden saying anything about hating our freedom, though it seems like Bush does from the way he's been taking it away. Mostly, bin Laden is pissed about the US meddling in the Middle East, which it has been for so long. In truth, the attacks on the US had much more to do with American support for the brutal Saud monarchy in Saudi Arabia than any abstract notions about freedom (like we have much of any).

This point on freedom is worth looking at, though. Fuck, just what freedoms do we have? I don't have control over even the basic elements of my life. I don't control my work, what's done with my work, when I do it and how it's done. My boss gets rich while I slave and can fire me at will. I don't control where I live and have to kiss ass to a greedy landlord who extorts me for money every month under threat of homelessness. The government takes 20 percent of my pay every day for bombs and for a retirement system that I ain't every going to get anyhow. I could go on, but, seriously, what is the value of my alleged "free speech" that the late Tillman was supposedly protecting if I don't have any of those things? Nada.

And, if the US military is so damn good at bringing peace to humanity, then why have we been in so many wars? Is there a point at which we'll reach this mythical peaceful place you speak of? Methinks not as long as the army is around. Do you really think the world hates us for our freedoms? Do you really think that we are constantly under threat of attack for no giid reason? Seriously, there's a word for that, and it's "paranoid".

And, by the by, I ain't opposed to all wars. I support anti-imperialist wars of liberation like the Iraqi insurgency. And I support class war. You all love to ascribe all these silly assumptions to me that really reflect your narrow and naive political worldview more than they do me. You can only conceive of me as a liberal wishy-washy pacifist. Ha! I won't spoil the mystery, but keep guessing, homies. You're not even warm.

And, by the way, I'm sad for the working class folks who got killed in 9/11, but I ain't shed one tear for the NYPD, the fascists at the Pentagon or those rich cokehead stock brokers getting wealthy on my hard work. They got what they deserved. Anyone remember Amadou Diallo? I do. Fuck the NYPD.

Shit, I love the point about me having to be in the military to criticize it. What a joke, and it sure makes your claim to love freedom of speech dubious at best. Do you still wonder why I doubt the military's relationship to protecting it? Hell, who shut down Moqtada al-Sadr's newspaper and set off the Sadr City uprising, free speech miltary lover? Doh! Get a consistent worldview, chumps. Does GW's military service permit him to criticize it? I'm a little sketchy on what part of Vietnam he served in (before you get stumped, it's a trick question).

Shit, taking apart your arguments is like taking candy from a baby.

And, by the way, if you want to come see me, here's my address:

2400 East Arizona Biltmore Circle, Suite 1150
Phoenix, AZ 85016

Ricky?
by Jay Crum Thursday, Apr. 29, 2004 at 12:02 PM
1812 Hamilton Dr. Carrollton,Texas

Ricky-

Still waiting for your address. I fly for a living. I can change my schedule anytime, buddy. Should have known you would clam up.

Let me know.

Jay

dude posted his address. r u blind?

DamnRicky you sound bitter because you have to work for a living

I ain't got a problem with labor. But I do have a problem with work, which is a system of domination that has nothing to do with socially useful production and everything to do with domination, humiliation and the enrichment of a very small minority of people at the expense of the rest of us. But, as usual, you missed my point, most likely because you're too stupid to understand it.

No your the parinoid idiot read all your post.actually im a cia oprative sent to infikltrate the gay idiots foundation nd get evidence on thier leader .........you

and by the way im a level 2 programer they dont give jobs like that to stupid assanine pepole like you.fucking idiot

It shouldn't matter whether Pat Tillman was gay or not; all this gay bashing is pointless.

ALL TILLMAN BASHERS WILL BURN IN HELL.GOD HAS SPOKEN

I FINALY FIGURED IT OUT RICKY YOUR ONE OF THOSE ANGRY BLACK MEN WHO THINKS THE WORLD OWES HIM EVERYTHING.

KB, Come see me some time and I'll SHOW you what a Soldier does to people that are not willing to do for themselves.
You fail to realize that the people that are in the US Military are all Volunteers. In other words THEY protect your ass because you can't or won't .

I would like to take a moment to remind those of you who have written here about your beliefs, that the freedom of speech is not just for you to use. It is to be used by everyone: radical, activist, leftist, centrist, anarchist, socialist, communist, and dissenter. Especially dissenter, because without dissent this great country, belief system, and Bill of Rights you are so proud of, would not be around. Without dissent there would never have been a first step taken in the 1700’s to free us from the oppression of the English Crown. You use your freedom of speech to try to scare those who do not have the same beliefs as you. To strike down the words of others who view things differently from you. And espouse hate and fear and use hateful and racist words upon those who hold different views than yours. Your belief is not the right one, it is not the only one, it is just one of many…

“We have known humiliation, we have known abusive language, we have plunged in to the abyss of oppression. And we decided to raise up only with the weapons of protest. It is one of the greatest glories of America that we have the right of protest.

If we are arrested every day, if we are exploited every day, if we are trampled over every day, don’t ever let anyone pull you so low as to hate them. We must use the weapon of love. We must have compassion and understanding for those who hate us. We must realize so many people are taught to hate us that they are not totally responsible for their hate. But we stand in life at midnight, we are always on the threshold of a new dawn.”

Dr. Martin Luther King

P.S. Those w.m.d.s you keep bringing up were supplied by the U.S., from Reagan and Cheney to use against Iran during the Iran/Iraq war. We also supplied money to Saddam and Osama. We used Osama and his "freedom fighters" to repel the on coming assault of Communist Russia. The U.S. supplied Osma with cash and weapons in that instance also. But I have a question for you all you "freedom lovers" and CHICKEN HAWKS... WHERE IS OSAMA NOW??? WHY CAN'T THE MILITARY FIND HIM??? all theories accepted... be fun to see all your facts... as diluted as they are by patriotic fervor and fear...

iCAN HARDLY SEE HOW YOU CAN COMPARE PAT TILLMAN WHITH THE TYRANTS OF ENGLAND IN 1700S.but i do see a abuse of these bill of rights thst you libaral hide behind and twist and contort to suit your weak and feeble minds .there is no conspiracy there is no proof of one you guys are worse than the enquirer or the world news weekly go chase batboy and leave our soldiers alone quit watching x files and 24.><

What's Your Point, KP?
Volunteers are good, conscripts are bad?
Let me remind YOU that the god-intoxicated whakos from our ally, Saudi Arabia; that flew the planes into the World Trade Center buildings; they were volunteers too. And your U.S. volunteers didn't protect the victims there, did they?
The U.S. flag-intoxicated sickos that tortured and sexually abused Iraqi prisoners were volunteers also.
Timothy McVeigh was a volunteer in your army, and then volunteered to kill in Oklahoma City.
The brave Freedom-fighters of Fallujah, and the crazy suicide bombers of Karbala, the Taliban and al-Queda in Afghanistan alike; all are volunteers.
KP, what is your point about volunteers?
-----------
Old man, you can't teach me a thing; you are the last century, i am the future.
---------
i just heard on TV that your 'HERO', Pat Tillman; i heard that HE SPLIT HIS SMALL FORCE IN TWO AND LED HIS MEN INTO AN AMBUSH!
And for this he gets a Silver Star?
i would laugh at this, but it's too tragic.
i am laughing at you, however.

as i said go chase batboy and leave our soldiers alone.direct your anger at a worthy cause not a make belive conspiracy theory

Better run, I hear sirens!

Your mission, pick up and defile all liberal women! It's the right thing to do!

Dr.
by Linus Pauling Friday, Apr. 30, 2004 at 3:26 PM
lpauling287@yahoo.com 756-677-0987 2509 Pierce St, Satta Barbara, CA 94561

Eat shit and die you liberal bastards.

"Pat Tillman obviously didn't realize that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were planned long before 9-11 occurred and both were intimately connected to US control of oil reserves, rather than to any so-called war on terrorism. He was probably oblivious to the fact that terrorism has been used before in history as an excuse for wars of aggression, perpetrated for other reasons. Hitler used the excuses of communist terrorism and terrorism against Germans for his annexations of Austria and Czechoslovakia. Ronald Reagan had his own war against terrorism in Central America in order to defeat socialist revolutions there, which were a threat to the capitalist system. Our own American revolutionaries were considered to be terrorists by the British. Using fear as a means of manipulation and control is nothing new."

Every liberal including you wants to brag about knowing just exactly what was and was not planned before, during and after 9-11. Just where do you get your facts? The likes of Ted "Chappaquiddick" Kennedy, John "Where am I this week on that?" Kerry, Bill "Slick Willy" Clinton, Tom "I'm better than everybody else Daschle?

It is bad enough to say the things you did about Pat "A better man than you will ever be" Tillman. But that is your right under the constitution. Write away loser!

The real war some day will be people like me against people like you. You don't stand a chance! You will pick the fight and I will finish it. Yes, I may lose my life or some of my people but I will not lose my way of life. Nor will my people.

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

They get their facts from 24 and reruns of x files

I just wanted to point out that none of the right-wingers on this thread have challenged a single fact that any of the opposition has cited, nor have they, as far as I know, cited a single fact of their own in defense of their point. Nothing but adhominems and chest-thumping. You all got any facts at all? Now would be the time to whip 'em out if you do, because you all look like big-time idiots right now. I don't know why you all are so eager to die for something you can't even begin to support factually...

Obviously the author of this propaganda has none! What a waste of web space.

Resistance 1, Rangers 0!

What about Rene Gonzalis?I belive he'd be a negative million for you guys right now

this is who you should be chasing leave Pat alone

Everyone on this board is being disrespectful. The right wingers are complaining about reading an article that they weren't forced to read and some are posting racist comments. The left is being no different in that they continue to bash. I am a socialist and I see everybodies lack of respect for eachother a lack of respect for freedom. If you lack respect for others opinions and bash those whose opinions are different, then you are no better than the person who wrote the article or the person you are bickering towards. I see everyone posting here, for the most part, as hypcrites. If you want to honor Pat, then respect other peoples opinions. Just my two cents.

"I have always admired the brave men & women of The US Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force & Coast Guard, but now more than ever, people are beginning to wake up to the the dynamic depth of your committment to honor, justice, freedom & the American Dream. There would be no American Dream if it were not for the sacrifices & heart & soul committment you all make in our name for our quality of life. We bow in respect to your dedication & courage. I take the truth to the world everyday that it is you, the warriors on the frontlines of conflict throughout history, that have saved innocent lives and made the world a better, safer place. Your higher level of awareness through diligent training to destroy evil wherever it may raise its ugly head, is deeply appreciated by those of us who live a good life in the shadow of your blood & guts. I drive myself to do radio & TV interviews everday of the year so that the war protestors & peacenix get a shot of reality. We are all aware that if not for you, these protestors would not have the freedom to protest, and for that, we salute you again. Believe me when I tell you, that the vast majority of good families in America stand heart to heart with you on your mission of good over evil, and we pray for your safety and swift return home to the land of the free & the home of the brave as soon as your life and death hard work is finished. May God be with you and may the devil be crushed underfoot as you march for peace on the skulls of our enemies, for goodwill, security and a quality of life that comes only with democracy, freewill and a thank you to God for these precious gifts. Godbless & Godspeed the warriors, your American BloodBrother, Ted Nugent & family."

I noticed someone used this famed moniker, props to the "" of 20000 crew

How you can speak ill about a man that did nothing but stad up for he right you have to write such shit is beyand rational thinking.

May you all die slow painful deaths....or better yet move to N. Korea if you don't like it here.

get fucked

Hey, Chris. I you want the answer to your question, why don't you read the thread, jerkass? Seems like the various positions are layed out pretty clearly. Your post, however, is more of the same old tired rhetoric without citing a single, solitary fact. Ever wonder what that says about your thought processes and the conclusions you have come to? Generally opinions without any facts aren't all that accurate.

you can't spell "PATRIOT" without "RIOT".

like youve mde a point smartguy

Don't you know, He died for all of us!

Big deal some guy died in war! That he turned down some career in some wealthy sport is inconsiquential to me. His life is no more valuable than any of the others guys who are over there. Which to people like Bush, wolfo, rummy (I hate calling such vile filth people) and all the greedy corpo-fascists in control of the banks, oil companies and other assorted military industrial complexes, those lives are worth nothing, they have no personal effect on any of them, except dollar signs and the power accompanying those dollar signs.

So Pat whatshisname, poor buddy got fooled by all the neo-con/corporate dribble about going to some place 5000 MILES AWAY for the shores of the united States and fighting a war. Shame.

All you war cheerleaders need to grab your gun and pack and get on a ship and go fight the war you think is just. Otherwise your no better than the shitbag politicos who spew out crap about freedom and democracy thrust upon other nations via wars yet they dont even have a child overthere getting shot, maimed and killed over such "commendable", "honorable" actions.

As far as pat goes I would not be the least bit surprised if some buerucrat somewhere decided pat was to die for propaganda reasons here in the "homeland".

Hey, Spongeknob finally posted something I like. That doctored photo kept a smile on my face all day. Sadly, I think I liked it for different reasons than you did, though. Thanks, whoever you are, though, for finally contributing something worthwhile.

At least Pat Tillman died doing what he loved- killing people.

the god thing was not my pic.i would never deface christ in anyway shape or form.it was probily you ricky who did that ,i could expect no less.i have way more class than that..............just another attempt by you peace mongers to lie and make another feeble attempt to smear a good persons name.i pity you and all your kind.and as for your so called facts you have shown none .the russian tank chasing a family ?Americans dont drive russian tanks........expecialy in kuwait where the pic was taken.thats a old pic ive seen it years ago.what are the 4 kids crying about i see no americans in this pic maybe its from a taliban car bomb that went off and killed thir father or maybe his dog?the 3 american soldiers that are running through the house how do you not know that they arnt chasing a killer or rapist or one of thir own who did something bad.it shows nothing at all .you pepole never show both sides and every produst you sell is either tainted or just plain forged .everything has to be this great big conspiracy,do you really think the world is out to get you .i couldnt stand to live whith a paranioa so comsuming as your .or the increadible hate your kind breeds.or is it that you dont care who you trample or hurt to put across your ideas your no better than the chathalics of the rennisance era.next youll be putting pepole in the iron maiden or drawn and quatered in town square .and anotherthing if your so intalectual cant you bring a better defence than your so stupid or im so smart because i go to college right now .please you think its cool to do what your doing now but i hope when yor older youll relize how many pepole you hurt .think of this guys family if he was my blood and i fouynd you thered be a world of hurt comin your way.how would you like it if i came to your mothers funeral and shouted for all to her '' that fukn whorebag cunt tramp bitch like to take my dick in her ass right before she sucked it''. i would never imagin doing that but you guys have no problem doing that at all.and where are all these facts you guys had ,i see nothing and yet you continually bash this dead man who cannot defend himself thats increadibly brave of you ,im immpressed .i know my first post was not the greatest the sand nigger reference was uncalled for and childish,for that i apoligize.i am sincerly sorry fo that i know middle eastern pepole and i am friends whith some and they are good pepolee .i challenge you ricky and the authors of these artical bashing a man who belived what he was doing was right to step up nd be a man.to apoligize not to admit your wrong but to admit that you handled it wrong .nobody these days back thier words whith actions. and i find anyone that does is a good person whith me one that i respect and admire.baby killer come on please.couldnt you so called intalectual minds think of something better?and this kb guy ,nice russian tank at least take the time to research before you start posting things .i think you owe yourself a apoligy if i was you which im glad im not i would apolagize to you for being you .sorry............................................sucks to be you .but if you guys are going to deface anyone at least have some proof not a bunch of hearsay and liberAal gossip.thats all i see here.as for me i dont think im better than you or anyone else .but i do think this is the greatest country on the face of the earth.and anyone who risk life or limb for this country is aq hero to me .thats just the way i fell and there is nothing anyone can say to change that.but please remember the next time you decide to drag a fallen american brother thru the mud for your own agenda please consider that this guy had a family and a loving mother and father at home who will never recover a trgic loss as awful as losing a family member my brother was murderd 2 years ago and it still hurts everyday .shame on you all of you that is all i will say i expect a good bashing fromm all of you but i hope you can rise above your chioldish ways and act like adults thank you and goodnight.Eric

Looks like you are melting down, sanity-wise. I mean, you are babbling like you have had a complete break with reality.

Is it just too much caffeine, or will you be checking yourself in somewhere which specializes in problems of your type?

PS- Hilarious photo, man, you have a great sense of humor!

i expected no less.......................................... .

Oh, spongeknobsquaeballs, now that we know how bitterly we have disappointed you, how can we go on?

Just keep bashing pepole and telling lies thats what you do best

Ok ok ok this is enough. I read every single post in this and so far, the only thing I have found out is that many many people are bitter about the fact that they dont have complete and utter control over the universe. I am absolutely sure I do not have every source in the world, dont push me on it. I am using my rational thinking(one of the few people who are doing so) for this post. People have bitched about baby killing, oil hunting, giving the weapons to our very enemy in the past, etc... time to pull down some shit.
First off, Pat Tillman was a baby as well. Calling him one is a complete double standard since, being a baby at one point, his enemies who killed him are baby killers as well. What makes him so much different?
Second is the oil hunting thing... Dear lord people what is wrong with you? We PLANNED 9/11 so we could get OIL? We exploded a major stock center in the biggest stock trading area in our country, a multinational trading center, so we could get more money? We LOST money to GET money? Why kill the thousands of people to get the "they are bad" point across? They could have blown it up at night when there were less people, less money lost. There was no reason to kill all those people except to make the scene a spectacular form of evil and anti-US action.
The giving away weapons to our enemy was in the past. We gave weapons to them BEFORE they "blew us up". Many years ago when they were fighting russians. Osama did not kill thousands of Americans in trade for our weapons. He turned on us at a later date. Past is past. This is like if you lend a person some money to help their family and then a few years later they use some of that money to kill your dog, you say "shouldnt have given them that money in the first place". Dolts. Maybe we should all turn into miniature nostradamus', since seeing into the future is all so easy and possible.
Next is me seeing people say "fuck all of you patriots". Do you know what a patriot is? It is, by definition, someone who "loves and zealously supports ones own country".(websters new world dictionary,1995). Thereby, you are saying "fuck all you americans". Thereby, you are saying "I hate my own country, but I am too much of a piss poor son of a bitch to give it away". If you dont like it, then fuck yourself. We have the internet because of patriots. The internet is what you are using to post your dumb ass all over the planet. Want to prove a point? Go and die for a cause. Oh, dont think it is worth it? Pat Tillman and the other hundreds of thousands of soldiers and other "patriots" did. They said "Forget my job, my house, my family, my life. I love it all, but I have bigger things to defend, like those very things I love." You hate the country you live in, but dont have the balls to get away from it. We have some of the best shit on this planet. Dont like it? Kill yourself. It doesnt get any better.
Next, because I am long-winded and angry, is politicians. If you dont like them, THEN BECOME ONE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Cant do that? Too much work? Then get over it. We are not in Utopia people. Life is not perfect. I know this. I have watched as my friends have moved, as people have died, as I have been betrayed, as people have lost jobs, as peoples' families have burned into ashes of their former selves.. I have seen people with diseases and cancer twist into a downward spiral of insanity. I have watched my mother go into a hospital from manic depression on multiple occasions. I also know that I am in the best damned country out there. I think about the fact that just a few miles from my house is mexico, and it is terrible there. I am so happy to live in such a place where these "evil baby-killers" are out there protecting my freedoms and my life until I am able to do so. I am going to join the Marine Corps in 2 years when I am 18, because I love my family, my freedoms, and the country which has let me have them. I am 16. I cannot believe that ones who are supposed to be older and wiser are such dolts. It doesnt surprise me anymore that I have known people to commit suicide because of their families. If my family was as dumb as some of you anti-patriots, I would consider it as well.
Bobby Reiley
Phoenix, AZ

As for prognostication and such, I'd like to offer a proverb or two that might help us understand what happened with US funding of mujahadeen in Afghanistan, the propping up the Saudi regime and 9/11:

"Lay down with dogs wake up with flees."

Or, if it is more to your taste, Malcolm X put it this way:

"It looks like the chickens are coming home to roost."

Realpolitik always bites you in the ass eventually. It don't take a genius to see that. Smash the state and this shit won't happen. As Mr. Lif says, "They killed us because we've been killing them for years." Government is too dangerous to leave lying around for anyone, Christian capitalist and Islamic theocrat alike, to pick up and do with what they will.

We're running out of time...

Ricky, your "proverbs" are useless. Not only is at least one of them based on a completely unrelated matter, but god damn it get a thought of your own. Saying other people's opinions makes you nothing but a waste of time to read. Get your own thoughts.

Also, quoting people like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr is completely useless. Those words were spoken decades ago about completely unrelated things. They did NOT say those things about this situation. Using them is just as good as not saying anything at all, besides saying "wow, those people sure were smart about that completely unrelated situation. It almost makes me forget that we are talking about Pat Tillman..."
Bobby Riley
Phoenix, AZ

i don't think ricky ever quotes MLK. just an observation. if you don't think malcolm is relevent today then you haven't read him.

this 16 year old kid sounds a hundred times more intelligent than you ricky go take some more politacal science classes at the community college where you attend class at

"Manic depression runs in families and may be carried by a gene inherited from one or both parents."

http://www.paraquad.org/mdfacts.htm

So... By saying I could be manically depressed, you are expecting my entire reasoning system to come crashing down because dear lord, kb is a mad hot genius? Correction: I have no manic depression. If you would meet me someday you could easily see that. Also, I have shown no signs of it. I have shown signs of you being an idiot. A very blatant idiot.

The fact that I say all the lefty liberal screwheads who have said something along the lines of "fuck patriots" and "hes a baby killer" are clinically retarded doesnt make me depressed. I might SOUND depressed because hearing of such retardation in the world makes makes me very very sad. Especially when someone tries to cop out my opinions because my family members have had mental problems. Nice try, by the way. You have achieved what many others try NOT to be: an imbecile.

Now... Why would you say "easy there" in the first place? Was I doing something wrong in some sort? Oh yes I was... In this thread, save the select few, REASONING has been outlawed. Thereby, if I get momentum by using rationality, I should slow down because the idiots cant handle the speed of common sense.

Also, nice picture. It really shows how a manic depressive person would act, instead of really sad and wanting to kill themselves, you insensitive crock of shit. Read that website you were saying to go to, instead of telling someone who would already know.

BTW spongeknobsquaeballs... I have the s/n of Bad_Aim on ar15.com. Thanks for showing me this place. I had almost(I wish) forgotten how stupid people are. This has corrected me. Damn I hate people nowadays...

Spongeknobetc... you know, not one of your assumptions about me has yet proved correct. College... it's so hilarious. You've made me laugh twice now, dude, though the Jesus-Tillman was the best one. Political science, Christian science... just because it has the word "science" in it doesn't mean a thing.

"During the manic phase, a person may feel "on top of the world" and have an abundance of energy. He seems to talk and think faster and espouse a number of ideas. He also may think he is invincible, leading to reckless behavior and acts that may endanger his life or well-being. A person in the manic phase also may have delusions of fame or believe she has a special relationship with a famous person. During this phase she also sleeps less, is easily distracted, and often is irritable."

http://www.paraquad.org/mdfacts.htm

babble on loser your idiotic ramblings amuse me so.................................................................

Is that a symptom of manic depresion again or is it just something said about talking to you? My god get over you ability to read and look at the points I made. The reason I wrote my opinion was not to say things about people having manic depression(obviously something you know nothing about, despite your ability to hit "copy&paste"). It was to say how people like you, Kb, are wrong.

But since you are too dull(dull like the spoon of the fillet knife world) to understand this, you have resorted to attacking a POSSIBLE(extremely slight, since it was already tested with my family, you dolt) mental problem I may have. By the way, I have about a 2% chance of having it. But then again, talking to you has made me wonder how much that chance has grown. Read what I say about the subject, not my basis for knowing that the world isnt perfect. Clue train's last stop seems to be you, eh?

I could speak much more, though, but my points are obviously hard to read with the rare language of plain english and that extremely complex "common sense" concept I use to display reasoning.

What is your base, Kb? Why do you suppose Pat Tillman was wrong or whatever you think? Was it because of him wanting to do something for his country and wanting to be the best for his life? Was he wrong for sacrificing himself for what he thought was right? Yeah... I guess he was really wrong for having values in life. Damn those people and their "values" and "ambition". Those things never get anyone anywhere, right? Oh wait....

Next time you write in this forum please, for your sake, dont have it speaking about manic depression and how I could have it. It shows that because you have no retort, you attack the person saying it, since if the person looks bad, their points could be blown off. Way to reverse your own methods upon yourself. Now, not only were you wrong in the first place, but you havent the reasoning to back it. You have now wasted everyones time, including your own.
Bobby Reiley

Easy There, Bobby Riley!
How's that drug and alcohol problem?

Wow... just wow. I can just see your thought process now...

"Hmmm.. he has made an excellent point. I AM an idiot. How can I further make myself look as though I have absolutely no intelligence? Well... OH I know! I can keep doing the same thing I have been ineffectively doing in the past! Man I am a mad hot genius! Someone slap me!"

Jesus man(or woman, I dont care) move on. Stop trying to make me look bad. It makes you sound like an incoherant bitch. The only thing you are doing is making me look BETTER because I am ceaselessly bringing up bigger and better points while you are attempting to slander my name(which you consistently misspell), to no avail.

Maybe you should try to back your argument with a point of reasoning. Wait... there is none. This is obvious, since you have brought up nothing of value. Nice job with the alcohol and drug post. It took a lot of thought to counter my opinion with NOTHING.

Instead of repeatedly posting about my lack of mental prorblems, bring up a point about the war orTillman or ANYTHING WITH A POINT. So far the only thing you have done is show how right I am. I suppose I should almost thank you. I would, if you werent such an idiot.
Bobby REILEY

YOU ARE AS STUPID AS THEY COME KB if i was your mom id of killed myself before you were born.jeez you are stupid and i know youll just post something tottaly ignorant fuktard .so give me and my friends a good laugh copy and paste some more pointless stuff thats not relitive about nothing dumbass.and damn ricky if i hade losers like this on my side id be ashamed.

Easy There, Bobbi O'Riley!
Denial: That's the first sign that you have a drug/alcohol problem. Add that to your mental problems and the fact that you "hate people" and are "angry"; well, that's a recipe for disaster.
i'm just trying to help.

no your being a idiot you cant challenge his post so you try to drive him off by being abnoxuious

Wow....the only person(s) who have made a somewhat stable statement that is good enough to even continue with is Bobby.
First of all you can't make a diagnosis of a disease like alcoholism or manic depression UNLESS YOU'VE GOT A PHD you asshole (KB)! And unless you have proof of such an item, which I am in serious doubt of because no self respecting doctor would have such grammatical issues as you do, DON'T GO AROUND DIAGNOSING PEOPLE dickhead aka KB. Oh and another piece of information for KB....if you haven't already noticed from the litterally thousands of medication commercials that are broadcasted nationally if not worldwide, just because you may show ONE sign or symptom doesn't mean you have it dimwit. Any jackass off the street could tell you that. And from the way you've been spewing off diagnosis left and right to people you've never seen and know absolutely no factual background history on you are showing signs of a very common disease. It's called Hypochondria. Now grow up and graduate the 3rd grade.
Secondly the topic of this post was, I assume at one point, Pat Tillman? So why are you all arguing over a non-existant disease and not the actual TOPIC of this post? I mean Jesus Christ...I know I get sidetracked easily, but god damned you people are pathetic. The only person who's tried to stay on topic is Bobby. And now you've got him defending his mental status instead of his opinion on a Post Subject. So why don't we all just grow up, realize our ages, get out of our parents house, get jobs, AND GET BACK ONTO THE TOPIC!

Bobby;
many of my friends and comrades in the anarchist community have called and e-mailed me, telling me that i should not keep messing with your head and that i should apologize to you and that i should get back on topic.
Bobby, i believe that all of us are wiser than any one of us; so i will defer to their collective wisdom.

Bobby i said you are crazy it is true and i am sorry for it
---------

Pat Tillman is a son of Satan and is DESERVEDLY suffering all the terrors and torments of hell.
Jesus said: "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9
Therefore:
Cursed are the warriors, for they are the children of Satan.
i envision Pat Tillman writhing in the hell-fire, screaming in agony.

How is it humanly possible to make an assumption about a person you've never met in person? You're saying he's crazy because he didn't conform to you're opinion?! If anyone's crazy it's you, you don't know him and when he starts making statements that make your opinion look like shit you insult him. That shows nothing but cowardice and stupidity on you're part KB. 
Pat Tillman passed up the chance at a multi-million dollar contract to play football so he could fight for his country. If that in some way is cowardly and deserves the punishment of eternal damnation I'd hate to see what the poor bastards that married women they hardly knew during WWI and WWII got just to get out of the draft. Pat Tillman fought in the war and died. A lot of other people have fought in this war and died, for whatever personal reason it may have been, but their not being criticized like Tillman because they weren't as famous.

Ohhh, poor Bobby. How did you let this happen to you? You need to be more careful about what posts you take seriously and what posts you respond to. If you go back and look at the posts, I think you'll see how you let yourself get sucked into this. You played right into it. Frankly, I don't think anyone on this thread is taking anyone's points seriously, and I haven't seen one that I consider serious in some time.
And you'll hopefully understand when I say that I am quite sick of silly opinions about the war like yours; it's very hard to take them seriously. It's not your fault, though. Well, not all of it, anyway. I blame the media and the education system. But I wish instead of just repeating the words and logic that they put in your head, you would think a little more critically. When the authorities - the teachers, the cops, the reporters, the politicians and the priests - told you they had your best interest at heart they were lying to you, Bobby. I hope you recognize this someday. They have no interest in telling you the truth and, honesly, most of them wouldn't know it if it bit them on the ass.

You would be well-advised to follow up anything that anyone tells you with the question, "What interest do they have in telling me this?" The Romans had a phrase for it: Quo bono?... In other words, who benefits? Follow the money, Bobby... Follow the money...

Ok ok I am sick of this shit. Kb, you are pointless. You know nothing. The second you try to do something, it is a quote. Go to hell. You have no eral opinion, obviously.

Monetalist, you are dumb as well. Blaming the education system(which didnt give me any of my opinions) and the media(which I rarely watch because of how distorted it is) on my own opinions is just another attempt to cop out my reasoning with slander. My god people, instead of thinking fo who I am, think of what I am saying. Stop wasting everyone's time.

Why shouldn't I take anything serious? Because you don't? If you dont take anything seriously, then dont post and/or read anything. If you dont intend on listennig, then you are wasting your own time. Dont want to listen to me? Here is my message to you:I dont care. Take THAT seriously. I dont care how seriously you take my opinion, since you are clearly not on the mental standard to understand it in the first place.

Seriously, come on. I am not nieve enough to think that all war is based on goody goody "liberating" mission like they say it is, but I am also smart enough to know that oil isn't the only reason. You tell me to follow the money? Follow the Twin Tower costs. That was beneficial, right? Follow the money Pat Tillman was getting for his career versus the money he got for being a Ranger. He got a lot more money in the Rangers, right? There ARE good people who want to have a poin to tehir lives in this world. The fact that you are not one of them should not make you think that everyone else is as pointless and wasted as you. Get some ambition and stop thinking everyone else is as useless as you. Both kb and mentalist have further wasted their lives. Good job.
Bobby Reiley

Righto, and how, Bobby, did the invasion of Iraq in any way address the attack on the WTC? Even US intelligence agreed there was no working relationship between Iraq and Osama Bin Laden, and it has since been established fairly conclusively that there was no significant quantity of WMDs in Iraq, either. We got suckered, my friend, led from Osama to Afghanistan to Iraq, convinced that we were chasing terrorists the whole way, but in truth there was no connecting thread either of evidence or logic between the WTC and Iraq.

We are simply acting in the Middle East as an imperialist, occupying force. We are not bringing "freedom." We are bringing oppression, we will soon be bringing McDonalds and Walmart, and we will take oil in exchange.

Now, that's something to die for...

Jesus Christ how dense are you people?! He's saying that there are people out there actually willing to give up their 50 billion dollar lifestyles to defend this country, and when they die while doing that duty they shouldn't have people like you destroying and ripping them down because of it. At least those people got off their asses and did something about it you lazy son of a bitches. Don't you dare say that they were in it for themselves when it was purely their option to do this and they gave up something none of us would ever give up. And from the way all of you have presented your arguments by
1) not having a very good one or
2) by just writing your opinion on a very small part of something that was previously said, it's blindingly apparent that Bobby's had more of an education than any of you or he wouldn't be able to tear you down so fucking easily.

The only fucking reason we're in the Middle East right now is because of Bush and what happened on 9/11 because he wanted revenge. And if you retards haven't figured it out by now not everyone is going to be straight out and honest with you...least of all your government, and frankly at the rate that we're using up oils and shit I wouldn't be surprised if one day they came up with an excuse to start up a war for that. If anything the US needs to fix it's own god damn problems first before it starts working on another countries problems.

Now before you start pulling any more shit out of your asses I suggest you take a while to think about what you want to say. Formulate it into a relatively good attack, then post it. Otherwise you're more than likely to get a verbal ass whooping from Bobby. And the next person who says anything undermining or derogatory about a dead US soldier or a living one I will personally beat you with a virtual stupid stick. You people volunteer for the marines, or army and leave your comfy, spoiled lives behind and go into war then see if you have the same opinions. Until then watch what you say because those people are volunteering to protect your unworthy asses.

Well, that was certainly a well formulated analysis of the current situation. ..

People are currently volunteering to join the military for a variety of reasons. Many do join for purely venal reasons such as education, training, and better jobs after discharge. Unfortunately, those who want to go to Iraq to defend the US, while well-intentioned, are deluded, as Iraq does not pose a threat to the US. If anything, the US is a continuing threat to Iraq, our covert meddling in that being uninterrupted and dating back to the mid-1950s.

So how should we feel about someone who joins the armed forces to forcibly and violently occupy a country which poses no threat to us, thinking that they are defending the USA? Should we worship them as heroes, or should we look at them much in the same way we look on someone who kills because of paranoid delusion or meth-induced hallucination?

I wonder, just what was Tillman defending when he was in Afghanistan. Certainly not me. I've never done any wrong to Afghanistan. I was against the Soviet intervention and I am against the American one now.

Plus, last I checked, it ain't like my situation or that of millions like me is all that great. I mean, I get paid shit wages and slave away all day in a dangerous job just to put food in my mouth and a place to sleep at night that isn't outsideor in jail. I can't see a doctor without paying out the ass. If this is what he's defending, maybe we should all try NOT defending it for a change, because it ain't all that great, it turns out.

Because, seriously, there's a lot to criticize about this country and what it does. And there's a lot to criticize about American troops. You say you don't want to hear any disparaging remarks about US troops, living or dead. Well, I wonder, would you mind if I told you what I thought about those MP's who tortured Iraqi prisoners? Is it okay to criticize them? Because if I can't criticize them, then I guess we all may as well just allow them to keep torturing, beating and killing those prisoners.

The fact is, America only works for some people. And all the invasions and interventions, coups and rigged elections happen just to make sure that the people at the top, for whom this system works great, keep on having a great time, at the expense of the rest of us.

No doubt that people join the military for all kinds of reasons, some of which include the fact that America doesn't guarantee any of us even the basics human needs without selling ourselves to some rich person or the government. And some join because they really believe that America is a force for freedom in the world, despite the massive evidence to the contrary.

But is what they do while they are in there somehow immune from criticism, then? You're going to have to tell me why that is. Is it okay to criticize other troops? Like Iraqi troops? Or British troops? Are just American troops granted this special exemption? You see how ridiculous your argument gets when we actually try to apply it?

And I dare say that you probably criticize things all the time. For one, you criticize us here. You probably don't like everything the government does, do you? Your post seems to suggest you are skeptical of the politicians motives. So, you might not have been too keen on what the Catholic Church has been doing lately, either. Or you might have been a little pissed about all those corporate scandals over the last couple years. Ever been angry over an incident of police brutality or an injustice at the workplace? I bet you have. And so I bet that there are some things about America that you don't like.

The thing is, all that stuff is all connected. And we have to address those connections. And, the fact is that some of those connections run right through Iraq. So, as long as that's true, then the army and the soldiers that have to or choose to carry out those policies that those politicians in Washington create are fair game for criticism.

You see, the reason why you are skeptical about government is the reason why you should also be skeptical about the military, and the corporations. Power in any form, whether it be in the workplace or in the government, behind a badge or at the front of a classroom, in the family or in the church, wearing a white hood or a set of BDU's, is dangerous. Rich people will lie to us working class folks to get us to accept all those things as legitimate and to carry them out for them, because while rich people run everything in this country, there aren't enough of them to get it done without suckering us into doing it for them. Plus, while we're all busy carrying out their decisions, we aren't organizing to take power back for ourselves. It doesn't have to be that way, though.

First off, Ricky... please stop bitching about you hacing to work for a living while other people were successful. Your shit job and shit wages are your fault. Want something more? Go out, get motivated, and do something about it. You get paid for what you do by the employer based on their wage average. They dont pay you because you think you deserve more.
Given, sports stars and movie stars who do much less work than the real working class get more money than probably the entire working class, but that is the way life is. It sucks, but all well.

As far as there being no connection to Iraq from terrorism... Roughly 10 years ago(more or less) George Bush had an assassination attempt on him by Iraq. People were constantly being killed for hte sake of having death, so people could be scared into loyalty. While the latter wasn't directly an offense to us, but the first was. Not to mention the support of Osama bin Laden from Hussein. They(government) decided they didnt like this too much. 9/11 happened. They had oil. It isnt a pure good reason to go, but hey... are you WANTING oil to be expensive? If you are pissed about us needing oil and wanting it for cheaper, then stop driving around. Until then, accept the need. Life is cruel, but shit happens.

There was revenge to be given and George Bush had the balls and the reasoning to go take care of it. I havent completely agreed with the guy, but at least he did what he thought was best. Tillman did the same. He died for it. So have the hundreds of other soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. It isn't that the decision was completely 100% right, it is the fact that it is our country and we should do our best to try to support it. He got elected for a reason.

But, on the flipside, thank you for finally bringing up a point instead of random shitheads trying to insult me. I admire your ability to back yourself up.
Bobby Reiley

I really hate this style of response, but I'm going to use it anyway because it is easier. Please accept my apology in advance.

"If you are pissed about us needing oil and wanting it for cheaper, then stop driving around."

Not that it matters, because I think I could still make the criticism either way, but it just so happens that I don't have a car. And I'm not a hippy either.

"He got elected for a reason."

Well, again, it's a nuanced point since all elections are frauds and scams, but I think it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that there is some dispute about whether he even WAS elected.

"Your shit job and shit wages are your fault."

Well, actually, I have no control over what jobs are created. I am not a capitalist, I am not the president, I am not a congressman and I am not the chairman of the Fed. And, since I can't get a job that doesn't exist, and since there are ALWAYS less jobs under capitalism than there are potential workers, I also don't really have the luxury of being too choosy about what I take.

"Not to mention the support of Osama bin Laden from Hussein."

Ummm, there wasn't any. This was completely made up. Hussein was a secular Stalinist for most of his career and actually Al Qaeda put out more than one statement denouncing him and calling for his overthrow. The real connection to terrorism, which you rightfully point out, was Hussein's brutal reign. Unfortunately, for most of that, he was America's best friend. Yet, again, I have to point out that Hussein never tried to kill me. And it was US meddling in the first place that kept him in power for so long.

"Roughly 10 years ago(more or less) George Bush had an assassination attempt on him by Iraq."

As for this, well, good for him. I think Bush is a bastard and wouldn't have shed a tear had the plot succeeded.

"They dont pay you because you think you deserve more."

Well, your grasp of economics is pretty primitive, dude, but, you're right. They don't pay me based on what I think I ought to get. Duh. But, that doesn't mean that's how it OUGHT to be. And it doesn't mean that's how it HAS to be. In truth, there's nothing natural or inevitable about the economic system we have now, where all the power and all the money is in the hands of just a few.

"I havent completely agreed with the guy, but at least he did what he thought was best. Tillman did the same. He died for it."

Well, I don't think the comparison is too far off to say that a lot of people have died for all kinds of causes that they believed in, not all of them right. For instance, lots of Nazis died for something they believed in. American soldiers died fighting to preserve slavery in the Civil War. They died fighting all kinds of people who just wanted freedom. And, in fact, plenty of Iraqi and Afghani resistance fighters are fighting for their beliefs against American troops. Do you accord them the same respect that you do American soldiers?

See, the point isn't their steadfast defense of their beliefs. It's what they believe that's a problem.

First off when was it written that your psudonym had to fit perfectly with the description of your personality type? I mean honestly if that's a written law somewhere I'd be happy to change it just as long as most of you are willing to change yours from whatever they may currently be to "dickhead", "backstabber", or maybe even "adulturer". Hey if we're all going to be honest about our personalities might as well involve our personal lives while we're at it. 
Those people who join the military to "forcibly and violently occupy a country which poses no threat to us, thinking that they are defending the USA," are most of the time misinformed about the situation, or have heard the situation through word of mouth which fucks everything up. That then allows them to form a biast opinion from what someone else has told them. As far as we know Iraq isn't a threat to the US. But then again neither was Japan in the begining of WWII. Assumptions are the worst possible thing we can do when we've got so many enemies. The United States is no longer the only major World Power, and if we assume that we are at no risk for harm because one country just happens to be weaker than us in weapon strength or anything else for that matter, we're stupider than we think we are.

"Jealous of our freedom? I can't believe you bought that excuse." -Immortal Technique

Well, everyone has less weapons than the US has. This country spends more on its military than pretty much the rest of the world combined. Someone I know once said, "If you meet more than one asshole in a day, the asshole might be you." So, consider, just why is it that the US has so many enemies? Is it because we're so busy bringing the light of democracy and freedom to the world? Now that just wouldn't make any sense, would it? You need to explain that if you are going to continue to argue your point.

I have to say this right now: thank you Ricky. You said something of your own opinion and while a little bit of it(all elections are frauds and scams) was dismissable, you spoke your mind not based on quotes, but your own personal thoughts and experience.

I am not going to go ranting on about choices in employment because I know that everyone has their own lives, and I don't know your story. I am just going to say that if you really get motivated, you could possibly do better. Blaming the government for it is pointless.

Because this is a very sensitive issue and could be easily miscontrued, I am going to say this right now: I hate nazism and the current workings of communism. I especially disagree with slavery and the holocaust. It was some serious shit and they will all read what they sowed.
BUT I do respect the fact that the soldiers(not the SS, those dirty murderous fuckers) fought for what they thought was right. Even if they DIDNt think it was right, they fought for their homeland and leaders. I do respect them in that sense. Not the fact that they killed millions of innocent people across multiple nations because they had a certain name or lineage.

Also, you were right. It isnt that they are wrong for fighting for what they believe, it's just what they believe(at some points) is wrong.

And just in case anyone forgot, KB is still an imbecilic fool.
Bobby Reiley

i wonder how many prisoners Pat Tillman abused along with all your other volunteers?
How many?

i wonder how many war crimes Pat Tillman committed, along with all your volunteers?
How many?

Do you think that's Pat on the right?

I think this is the most disturbing picture yet. These soldiers deserve to die for what they have done.

pat tillman was not a mp he wasnt around any prisoners stupid Wow you are a complete idiot post the pic whith the russian tank again so we can all get a good laugh

(BAGHDAD)When it comes to defending the US military, 15-year- old Khldoon
Abdullah Mahmood is a lone voice in the boisterous hallways of his Al
Jadreeya Intermediate School.

"I love the Americans," he shouts. "They have tanks, Chinook, Black
Hawk. They fight for us, for the true Iraq."

Behind him comes a chorus of boos.

"I used to love the Americans, but I changed my mind after Fallujah,"
says Hassan, a pudgy, bespectacled 15-year-old, adding with
uncertainty, "Give me a weapon and I will fight America."

Another boy has a different idea: "Let's beat up Khldoon."

Not so long ago, school boys across Baghdad chased US tanks, flocked
around soldiers, and practiced their "thumbs up." These days, they are
deeply divided about the US military, and in many cases have turned
against their former heroes.

"These children loved the USA soldiers," says the school headmaster,
Abbas Fadel al Hakim. "But they've seen things in the streets like the
American soldiers stepping on people's heads in the streets. This has
changed their attitudes."

In Iraq, adolescent boys on the brink of manhood must choose between
real enemies: the US soldier or the Iraqi resistance fighter. It is a
debate that forces boys to wrestle with adult questions of national
identity, heroism, and definitions of manhood that they are not mature
enough to understand, experts say.

"At this age, a boy is trying to find himself," says Dr. Ali Aoda, a
child psychologist at the University of Mustansiriyah in Baghdad. "He
wants to be a man, but the family still treats him like a boy. So he is
extremely susceptible to outside influences."

At Khldoon's school, the winning influence lately seems to be the Iraqi
resistance fighter. A random poll of one classroom of boys showed that
28 boys said the resistance fighters were their heroes, while only four
boys sided with the US soldiers. They all conceded that one year
earlier, all 32 would have voted for the US soldiers.

Salan, 15, says, "When the soldiers came we thought they were our good
friends. They played with us. But now the Americans shoot the Iraqis.
They have changed."

Some of the enmity toward the Americans may be a residual legacy of
Saddam Hussein's teachings. In Hussein's days, primary and secondary
school textbooks championed the embattled Iraqi soldier, portraying him
as relying on courage and inner strength to defeat the more powerful
forces of Zionism and Western imperialism.

The David-versus Goliath relationship is now being mirrored by the
Iraqi resistance fighter taking on the US military. "In the resistance
figure, a boy sees manhood in an older Iraqi fighting against a big
power," says Dr. Aoda.

The trauma of living in a war zone could also contribute to boys' sense
of disempowerment and need to join a group perceived as strong and able
to protect them, such as the resistance movement.

In fact, in recent weeks, dozens of children have been killed by both
sides. In Basra, a bomb planted in an Iraqi police station killed 12
students on their way to school. In Fallujah, a dozen children under 15
were caught in the cross fire when US forces attacked, the Iraqi health
minister reported.

Here in Baghdad, the Al Jadreeya school sits 200 meters from the US
headquarters, which is frequently targeted by mortars that shake the
classroom windows.

Hassan, 15, says he used to be one of the Americans' biggest fans. He
admired the soldiers' complicated gear and clean uniforms and their
friendliness, and waved at them in the school. He often played soccer
on the street with soldiers posted near his house.

But he says he has changed his mind slowly over the past 10 months,
starting in March when, driving through Baghdad with his father, he saw
a US tank crush the car of an Iraqi man. "He just wanted the soldiers
to stop at the red light," Hassan says.

Another boy, Mustafa, also reflected the complex emotions. In class, he
speaks angrily against the US soldiers. However, later, when asked if
he had ever met any US soldiers, his face lights up. He talks in vivid
detail of two "friends," a marine named "Animal" who had three teeth,
and another US soldier named Thomas, from Chicago. "They were my
friends. I followed them everywhere."

When asked why he changed his mind, he said he didn't know, finally
adding, "The soldiers don't come to our school and play with us
anymore."

At a nearby US military base for Alpha Company, 153rd infantry, 2nd Lt.
Scott Tucker concedes that community relations efforts had waned. His
unit replaced the 1st Armored Division, which had spent a lot of time
and effort in the first six months after the war in school renovation.
Tucker's unit arrived only three weeks ago, and the soldiers haven't
had time to get to know the kids and visit the schools. "We'd love to
get out there, and we're going to," he says, but it will be difficult
if resistance fighters continue to attack them.

At the school, English teacher Hamid Abdul Kareem says he tries to
defend the US military against the students' most common complaint:
that the US military hurts innocent people.

"I tell them, 'You have to understand that they are young men, and they
are also scared of terrorists.' " But Mr. Kareem is also divided
between supporting the US military and the resistance movement. "A US
convoy passed me the other day on the road. I pulled to the side, and
the US soldier leaned down and cursed at me. Why do they do that? They
are rude," he says angrily.

Kareem says he tells his students not to wave or greet American
soldiers anymore. "What if someone from the resistance sees him waving
at a US soldier? They may not like this and hurt the pupil."

Hence, defending the US soldiers publicly falls to 15-year-old Khldoon
and a small band of other students, many of whom have parents connected
with the US. Khldoon's unwavering support comes in part from the fact
that his father works as a translator for the US military. Still, he
wishes the soldiers would come back to his school and show the other
boys that they are not the enemy.

"I say we gave Saddam 35 years. Why can't we give the Americans a
little more time to show us what they can do?" Khldoon says, in the
hallway.

This is a picture of me and my lover ricky last saturday night.Just wanted to come out of the closet.Sorry Ricky

Well, I really think it signals the intellectual surrender of the opposition when they have to resort to posting under your name to try to discredit you. Unable to compete in the realm of ideas and facts, they resort to dishonest tactics and lies. Big surprise, right? I'll take it as a sign that they have given up all hope of proving their case through facts. Just like the US government they love so much, they have opted for the route of obfuscation and disinformation.

i knew you two were totally gay .good for you you finnaly came out of the closet.homos.nice pic of kb and ricky much better than the jesus pic

I hate to write up a quote, but I have to put in this one:

"I say we gave Saddam 35 years. Why can't we give the Americans a little more time to show us what they can do?" Khldoon says, in the hallway. "

Now, despite the fact that Ricky says it wasnt him, it is a good line. But if it WASN'T Ricky, the one who wrote it is a dickhead. Good point made, bad way of putting it. You might have a different opinion, but don't superimpose your views into someone else's mouth. Jackass.

Next is the gay picture... Damn it people stop being stupid. FIRST... political standing doesnt denote sexuality(which I really shouldn't ever need to say). Second, posting under other people's tag is insanely stupid, especially in the manner in which it was done.

I am ashamed to be arguing the same points as some of these people. If you have a point fine, but faking and superimposing is not the way to show them. Thanks for making youself look bad again, whoever has been falsely posting.

I hate to say this, but I am sorry to kb and Ricky. That was bullshit with the picture. But kb... Pat Tillman was a Ranger in combat, not an MP in a prison. another bad picture with a bad point, but I will just let it go because of some STUPID SHITHEAD with the gay porn picture. But now you see how dumb it is to have someone try to prove you wrong by attacking your persona instead of your opinion.

Way to strike for freedom, whoever that asshole was.
Bobby Reiley

it was me who posted the pic of me and kb i just wanted everyone to know and im tired of hiding from the truth for that im sorry but i will never hide my true feelings for you kb never

I think its fucked up to use someones tag to post stuff too like the jesus pic.........................

Well, I should hope that the mere fact that when I write I use proper spelling and punctuation will differentiate myself from whatever loser is trying to post under my name. I say this not because I think spelling and punctuation are so important, but because I know it's impossible for whoever is trying to take my name to use proper spelling and punctuation, being that they are complete idiots.

And, yeah, I fail to see what my sexuality has to do with my political point. If I were gay, does that change the facts I am using? If me and kb were lovers who were into really making cheesy gay porn, would that change the fact that the US is committing war crimes in Iraqi prisons? I don't think so. In fact, it is precisely because I am using facts that are irrefutable - at least by whatever idiot is doing this - that this schmuch has to resort to this homophobic crap.

So, whatever, gay/straight/ bi/trans/queer, can you engage the politics? Apparently not. Like I said before. I take it as a white flag from the opposition.

Spongeknobetc... you know, not one of your assumptions about me has yet proved correct. College... it's so hilarious. You've made me laugh twice now, dude, though the kb-ricky-was the best one. Political science, Christian science... just because it has the word "science" in it doesn't mean a thing.

a lot of gay pepole use that phrase

Usually it's death threats.
Now its porn.
They hate our freedom.

Boy Ricky whoever posted that pic of you and kb shure struck a nerve with you .Made you jump to attention rather quickly

please post that pic of the russian tank again i need a good laugh at how stupid you are.btw nice pic

May 4, 2004 -- A terrorist bomb plot to kill President Bush was thwarted yesterday when Turkish police nabbed 25 members of an al Qaeda-linked cell who planned to assassinate world leaders in Istanbul next month - then flee to Iraq.
Investigators yesterday announced that they seized 16 of the men in the Turkish town of Bursa last Thursday, along with guns, explosives, forged ID documents, bomb-making booklets - and 4,000 CDs featuring training instructions from Osama bin Laden.
Turkish TV said three of the suspects had been planning for as long as a year to blow themselves up with a bomb that would also kill Bush and other Western leaders.
The plot had reached a very advanced stage and terrorists had begun testing explosives, The Times of London reported. Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and dozens of other world leaders are scheduled to attend a NATO summit in Istanbul on June 27-28.
The historic meeting will be the first since NATO expanded to 26 member states.
The 16 suspects, all Turkish nationals, are members of Ansar al-Islam, a terrorist group based in northern Iraq, said Bursa province Governor Oguz Kagan Koksal.
The group, tied to al Qaeda, is believed responsible for twin homicide bombings in Irbil, Iraq, that killed 109 people in February.
Koksal said the terrorists planned to flee into Iraq to join the anti-U.S. terrorists after their "sensational" attack in Turkey.
Koksal told a press conference that the cell's "organization has been neutralized," and NATO officials said they planned to go ahead with the meeting.
Koksal told a press conference that the cell's "organization has been neutralized," and NATO officials said they planned to go ahead with the meeting.

Well, actually, I was posting in response to the first thing and didn't see the picture until after I posted. I still haven't seen you, spongknob..., make a single concrete political or factual challenge to anything anyone you seem to disagree with has said. I'm beginning to think you aren't capable.

shit, spongeknob ain't even spelled his own name right yet. what an idiot. this dude is desperate.

you have made only assumptions no facts ive read through eveything you have written not one fact.nice pic of you and kb . dont you think you should have posted that somewhere else though...................and as for your insultive nature nothing your gay ass can say to me that will get you under my skin homo.stick whith kb hes more your type

ran out of room took out the r stupid.thats why my name is not spelled right .oh ya i forgot all you libral dumbfucks only make assumptions no reserch involed

Dude, spongeknob, is your arm broken or something? How come you can't type for shit? One armed typist?

i only have 2 fingers on my left hand.lost them i kuwait

you lost them? where'd you see them last? you should go get them if you can remember.

The sad thing is that the last intelligent thing that was posted on thsi site was by a person I was in the beginning opposing. Strange... I am actually for the most part ashamed to be arguing for what most people would call "conservationalist viewpoints".

For the record, I do not put myself under either category because I agree with both sides about different things.

But now I don't know what to do. The liberals are getting screwed over a few dumbshit conservationalists who cant argue their point, and the conservationalists are getting screwed by other liberals who are doing the same thing.

In the end, the only thing that you reverse taggers and superimposers and all that shit is making your own self look bad. It makes your entire side look like a bunch of idiots. I apologize to Ricky for having to deal with them.

KB still sucks. He is still too dumb to overlook.
Bobby Reiley

Dazzle me whith some more of your wit loser.you slay me hahahahaaaahaaaha

technically, you're the loser, since you lost your fingers. I still have all of mine.

Wow you are really sharp ill never forget you jimbo wow

yep i got all my fingers. but I'll be thinking of you while i'm playing my guitar, sponge. this song's for you, dude. good job preserving kuwaiti democracy, by the way. didn't you think it was ironic that the american revolution was fought over ending a king while operation desert storm was about saving one? some freedom... we;ve come a long way, haven't we?

Spongeknob... said: "Wow you are really sharp ill never forget you jimbo wow"

you;ll never forget me but you forget where you put your fingers... ha. i must have made an impression.

you must have took the pic of ricky and kb .i can tell how you love them so...............

Thanks, Bobby. I appreciate what you're saying. I don't think you are maliscious in what you're saying. I think you, like most people, are really interested in getting to the truth and figuring shit out. I'm glad we were able to find some kind of understanding between us, even if we still disagree on some points. I have to turn in now, since I have to work early tomorrow.

Peace. Anything posted under my name between now and tomorrow night is definitely not me because I'll be asleep or working.

look at mee im so so so gay by the way jimbo did take that pic for me right before he joined in

look at mee im so so so gay by the way I did take that pic right before I joined in

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WHAT TO DO IN IRAQ?:
... AND THE REAL ROAD AHEAD

By AMIR TAHERI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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May 4, 2004 -- WHAT to do about Iraq? I was bombarded with this question during a recent visit to the United States.
The question is based on two assumptions. First, that Iraq is about to plunge into one of the nightmare scenarios discussed by self-styled experts on TV. Second, that there is some kind of magic wand that one could wave to transform Iraq into a paradise of freedom and prosperity.

Both assumptions are false.

The nightmares are often peddled by those who had opposed the liberation because they didn't wish to see a U.S.-led coalition bring down a Third World dictator. The doomsayers' initial prediction was that, deprived of its oppressor, Iraq would plunge into civil war. That has not happened, so they now warn of chaos, and predict a nationwide insurrection against the Coalition.

But is Iraq really plunging into chaos? Anyone in contact with Iraqi realities would know that the answer is: No.

Yes, a variety of terrorist, insurgent and ordinary criminals are active in the country. Parts of Baghdad remain unsafe. Some roads, especially in the desert area bordering Jordan and Syria, are prone to attacks by bandits. And, as in many other parts of the world where criminal gangs operate, there is also some hostage-taking. But most of Iraq's 18,000 villages and 200-plus towns and cities remain as safe, if not safer, than those in some other Arab countries.

The Coalition faces a problem in Fallujah. But Fallujah accounts for no more than 4 percent of Iraq's Sunni Arab community. Other major Sunni cities - Mosul, Ramadi, even Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown - remain calm.

Fallujah has become a problem for specific reasons. It is at the heart of a region that has been the center of Sunni military elites since the creation of Iraq in 1921. It is also the capital of several Sunni Arab tribes with branches in other nations, including Syria and Jordan. And Saddam invested heavily there, especially by building housing for army, police and secret service personnel working in Baghdad. Ba'athist military and their families account for some 30 percent of the city's population. It is the Iraqi city that most resents Saddam's fall and the end of its privileges.

Yet even in Fallujah there is no evidence that a majority of the people regret liberation or want Saddam back. There are perhaps 2,000 insurgents, including dozens of non-Iraqi fighters, in the city. The fact that more than half of the city's inhabitants have left their homes shows that, though they may wish the occupation to end, they don't wish to side with the insurgents.

Those who claim that Iraq is in chaos also point to Najaf, where Muqtada al-Sadr, a 30-year-old Shiite cleric, is hiding in a number of holy shrines and mosques along with his so-called Army of the Mahdi. But talk to anyone in Najaf and you'll soon know that the overwhelming majority of the city's population wants Sadr to get the hell out. (After more than two weeks of contacts with Iraqi Shiite leaders and opinion-makers at various levels, this writer has not found anyone who supports Sadr and his shenanigans.)

Sadr is abusing the old Shiite practice of "bast," which consists of taking sanctuary in a holy shrine. But Najaf is a city of 500,000 people, while Sadr's followers number 3,000 at most.

And Sadr's quarrel with the Coalition is personal rather than principled. He resents not being given a share in the Governing Council, and is unhappy that he and 18 close associates are wanted for murder. His strategy is a typical desperado's: He hopes to force the Coalition out of Iraq, provoke chaos and, if not secure a chunk of power for himself, avoid prosecution for murder.

The Coalition would do well not to force its way into either Fallujah or Najaf. In each, it faces a group of armed men holding larger civilian populations hostage. In Fallujah, the insurgent Ba'athists are using Saddam's typical tactic of using human shields. In Najaf, Sadr and his gang use the Shiite shrines for the same purpose.

There is no nationwide insurrection in Iraq. Nor is Iraq suffering from a general breakdown in law and order. To be sure, it is no bed of roses. But the violence and insecurity are within the remit of normal in a post-liberation situation, and remain manageable.

As things stand, the Coalition does not need more troops. In fact, it should speed up withdrawals from the dozen or so cities and towns where its troops are deployed for policing, a task for which they are neither trained nor equipped. Disbanding the Iraqi army and national police was a major mistake. But that is spilt milk. What's now needed is a fast-track program to train and deploy more units of the new army and police.

What of the pundits' second assumption - that some magic wand could turn that country into an Arab Switzerland overnight? There is, of course, no such magic wand. And Iraq, while capable of moving towards pluralism, will need years to develop a stable democratic system.

When President Bush announced the start of the war to liberate Iraq, he promised to stay the course until the Iraqi people built a new democratic system. Implicit in that offer was that the Iraqis should play their part in what is by far the greatest challenge they have faced since their state was created eight decades ago.

The people of Iraq have kept their end of the bargain. They did not fight on Saddam's side, allowing the Coalition to achieve victory with remarkable ease. Since then, they've continued to do what is required of them - not only by isolating insurgents and terrorists, but also by beginning to rebuild their shattered country. As a string of recent polls, complemented by personal and anecdotal information, indicates, the overwhelming majority are still prepared to work with the Coalition to achieve their dream of a new political system based on human rights and pluralism.

The real question is: Will the Coalition keep its end of the bargain? Or will U.S. and British leaders, for reasons of domestic politics, lose their nerve, throw Iraq to the United Nations or some other ineffectual custodian and sacrifice the strategic goal of a democratic Middle East to tactical electoral considerations?

What to do in Iraq? The answer is simple: Don't lose your nerve!

Yes, Iraq can become another Vietnam - not because of anything that's happening there, but because America and its allies, for reasons of domestic politics, might panic and transform victory into defeat.

E-mail: amirtaheri@benadorassociates.com

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look at mee im so so so gay by the way I did take that pic right before I joined in

whered you go jimbo go to see ricky and kb oh well maybe tommorrow if your not to worn out

...dance monkey dance. i'm still here, sponge. i love laughing at your idiocy. youre so obvious, man.

i have sexual relations whith my mother and father

dancing monkey you must be thinking of when michel jackson and his monkey ass raped you at neverland

now think of a witty retort please JIMBLOW

but this time please no mayo or onions on my burger.

One good thing about Pat Tillman:
He's dead and the worms are having a feast.

First worm: "Delicious! What is it?"
Second worm: "Football player turned baby-killer."
First worm: "Tastes like chicken!"

Think of how HE feels!

I like the way his cock felt in my ass

When i went to Mcdonalds where you work to get lunch (mcdonalds known for hireing retards like you)you forgot to take off the mayo.i already asked you to remember no mayo please.you need to pay attention to the work you do its a reflection of your charector

"There are some who feel like that if they attack us that we may decide to leave prematurely. They don't understand what they're talking about, if that's the case. My answer is, bring them on." - G. Bush

... all they did was what he asked them to do.

Pat Tillman was an American above being an Arizonan.

I'm sure there are a lot of folks on the board who would take quite an interest into how an icon of selflessness in the US military like Pat Tillman was is being insulted - right along with every other soldier and Marine currently fighting the war over there.

This wasn't just a disgusting insult to Pat Tillman, it's actually a very good example of how the ignorant, hatefilled, ungrateful and selfish destroyers of America have learned to be just a bit more clever in how they spit on our troops and call them "baby-killers".

...you're an idiot, spongknobetc, when you post under my name. I think everyone can tell the difference between my real posts and your pathetic, monosyllabic and primitive rants under my name. Maybe I'll just start posting under your name. We can switch and suddenly you'll start making some sense thanks to me.

I dont know what your talking about but i do think the pic of you and kb that you posted is disgusting shame on you

Much worse than the jesus pic dont you think.........................................Ricky

Dont talk bad about the picture.I love kb ,Jimbo too

I just cant belive you forgot to take the mayo off my burger at lunch today , ohwell i guess you dont have to go to college to work at Mc donalds

You know what's funny, spongetc? I didn't make that picture of Tillman. I thought it was funny, but I don't even have photoshop so I couldn't have made it. The fact that you think I did it just proves again what an idiot you are.

Im sorry i forgot no mayo . You see im a complete idiot i live in the projects.and i just dont think of the things i do ,i just cant stop thinking about my true loves kb and jimbo .its really starting to mess up my days. Also im so worn out by all the gay sex we have im just to tired to think clearly. i apoligize from the bottom of my heart to each and everyone out there im sorry

no i dont think you made it .i dont care ,actually i could give a shit what a lame ass faggot like you or kb does or says you read into everything to much.but then again what do you expect.but if you want to post you and your lover please do it somewhere else please . thank you .spongeknob

jesus, spongeknobsqaeballs, you have got to be the biggest most immature idiot I have ever seen post on this website. And that's saying a lot because I don't even agree with most these liberals on here. II'm embarrased by how you behaved on here. I agree with those who said that you have to be pretty stupid becauseyou can't seem to make a single political argument and keep taking over people's names. When you do that you make discussion impossible. i can only assume you want that because you can't make a political argument to save you're life.

i only use my real tag dummy.some other asshole not me.but as always speculation and heresay but what do you expect from a liberal

Whatever happened to little Bobby Reiley?
i sure hope he's OK; last Friday's post has me concerned for his well-being. You know, the one where he said "how stupid people are. This has corrected me. Damn I hate people nowadays...". That doesn't strike me as too healthy, and it's doubly worrisome in a 16 year old boy.

i hope he doesn't do anything foolish like...you know.

sincerely,
kb

Strange enough, 1/23(more or less) posts is intelligible. Damn I hate almost ALL of you now, not just KB.

The rest of you, the others who feel necessary to rant on about bashing (gay bashing, political standpoint assumptions, no point in speaking but to insult, etc...) are dumb. Every person out there who has ceaselessly made no point but to point out their own lack of IQ is wasting their own time and everyone elses.

A liberal is not a personality. Neither is a conservative. Both are feelings about government greatly generalized to fit into two nice neat little packages, like democrat and republican. Not everyone fits under just one. I have found out that calling eachother bad things based on that "title" is nieve and just shows your own lack of thought process.

Might I point out that in the beginning of this forum/article, it was based on PAT TILLMAN and his death, and the way people felt about it. Let me restate that, since it is obviously been missed:

P A T T I L L M A N

Not gay people, not mental deficiencies in the postees, not tag jumping, not losing fingers in Kuwait or even how people spell. You know what spelling shows about political standpoints or facts?
Answer:JACK SHIT

Get back to the SUBJECT, people! Ricky, my former enemy, is so far the only person I have believed in now. At least he is saying shit based on his own words now and shuts the fuck up about the other posting people, unless they directly offended him.

The gay picture has nothing to do with anything. Homosexuality at ALL has nothing to do with it. Is PHOTOSHOP(and/or copy&pasting pictures) a valid argument? Here is a clue: NO, you imbeciles.

My god people... you are the frontal lobotamy of the free speech world. The little pinpoint in the front that gets scratched and turns the rest of the mass into a VEGETABLE. It is still there, but primarily useless because that front section is gone. Such is you.

Get back to the topic or get back to shutting the hell up.
Bobby Reiley

ui made a good point about kb not knowing jack shit and posting pics from a different war ie kuwait not iraq the pic of christ was not mine yet it bears my name .and please tell me what fact these ignorant liberals have made was it the one accusing tillman of abudseing pows ?any idiot knows only mps that military police for all you dumbfucks out there are the only ones who watch over pows thats prisoners of war for the same pepole noted above "dumbfucks"or is it that they "dumbfucks" have not produced one solid piece of evidece to support thier mental hiluciations. all speculation and heresay.i need not to argue because theres nothing to argue .liberals are parinoid hipsters that think this is the 60s or something .they use all the ignorant bullshit tactics as thier dumbass forefathers of the sixties.my god its 2004 not 1968.you have to have proof to make a statement not i heard or i read or i seen a pic somewhere where is all this evidence you liberals have .havent seen any yet . and by the way a quote proves nothing .its probily kb sounds like the shit that asswad would pull like the manic deppresant shit or the jesus pic as always the liberakl finger pointers are full of shit and dont have a leg to stand on .point the finger elsewhere stupid

and youll notice a couple of post above same bullshit manic deppresion suicide crap here come the ignorant kb in all his glory.AS I SAID BEFORE PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND LOOK AROUND STUPID

KB? You know nothing about me. Try getting a view on the subject. Your attempt to make me sound bad has gotten old. In fact, it was old before it was even young. You are pretty much my posterchild of my new campaign. Want to see it? Its called...

YOU HAVE NO POINT, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Yes I do have a disease. It is actually a cancer. It is called "Reading what kb says" cancer. It eats you alive until ultimately, from all the stupidity, your mind has been rotten away and you die.

I stated my points. Either make like Ricky and try to oppose them, or cut off your fingers(doing the rest of the world an ainstant favor, for you no longer can type).
You have no point, shut the fuck up.
Bobby Reiley

Have you pulled the head out yet?

still waiting for that accuising finger you guys are a little slow tonight.i see whoever you are who uses my tag havent posted in a few hours .please do another one so i can have a good laugh

????????????????????????????????

WHEW! Really good to know you are still with us, little Bobby. Gave me quite a scare there when you hadn't posted in a`while; what with your disturbing posts and all.

Sincerely,
kb

dipshit is in the building!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and as your buddy ricky says posting things in my name just make you look like a idiot

and im comn into lunch today so please ricky no mayo try to remember this time

Actually, Spongebobsquaballs looks like an idiot, whether or not somebody posts in his name. He needs no help. Spongebob's functional illiteracy gets that message accross just fine....if the content of his posts somehow failed to do so.

WEST CHESTER, Pa. -- Ever since he graduated from high school, Nick Berg lived a life of adventure. He took college classes at Cornell, Drexel, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma. He helped set up electronics equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000. He even made several trips to Third World Countries _ at one point teaching villagers in Ghana how make bricks. His latest adventure was an independent trip to Iraq to help rebuild its infrastructure. But the trip ended in tragedy when Berg, 26, was beheaded by an al-Qaida-affiliated group that said the killing was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers. Friends and family members describe Berg as smart, funny and enormously generous. His father said Berg returned from his trip to Ghana emaciated because he gave away most of his food, and the only possessions he had were the clothes on his back. "That's the kind of passion we're dealing with here," Michael Berg said. Berg, who was unmarried, owned a small business that worked with communication equipment like radio towers, and had traveled to Third World countries to help spread technology, his family said. He saw his trip to Iraq, his father said, as an adventure, but one that fit into his ideology. He was a war supporter and backed the Bush administration. After working for a Texas company, Nick Berg went into business for himself in West Chester, near Philadelphia. Berg flew to Iraq on Royal Jordanian airlines, his father said. His father thought that would be the route he would take out of Iraq and even showed up at Kennedy Airport in New York in hopes of picking him up March 30. His friends at the local YMCA said Berg worked out and swam several times a week, that he was interested in power lifting and that he was always quick with a joke. "Some of the hardest laughter I had at the fitness center were from the jokes he told," said Nick Fillioe, a sports director at the West Chester Area YMCA. "I would say he was a free spirit, very intelligent," he said. "He was a real smart guy. He knew a little bit about everything."

WEST CHESTER, Pa. -- Ever since he graduated from high school, Nick Berg lived a life of adventure.

He took college classes at Cornell, Drexel, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma. He helped set up electronics equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000. He even made several trips to Third World Countries _ at one point teaching villagers in Ghana how make bricks.

His latest adventure was an independent trip to Iraq to help rebuild its infrastructure. But the trip ended in tragedy when Berg, 26, was beheaded by an al-Qaida-affiliated group that said the killing was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

Friends and family members describe Berg as smart, funny and enormously generous.

His father said Berg returned from his trip to Ghana emaciated because he gave away most of his food, and the only possessions he had were the clothes on his back.

"That's the kind of passion we're dealing with here," Michael Berg said.

Berg, who was unmarried, owned a small business that worked with communication equipment like radio towers, and had traveled to Third World countries to help spread technology, his family said.

He saw his trip to Iraq, his father said, as an adventure, but one that fit into his ideology. He was a war supporter and backed the Bush administration.

After working for a Texas company, Nick Berg went into business for himself in West Chester, near Philadelphia. Berg flew to Iraq on Royal Jordanian airlines, his father said. His father thought that would be the route he would take out of Iraq and even showed up at Kennedy Airport in New York in hopes of picking him up March 30.

His friends at the local YMCA said Berg worked out and swam several times a week, that he was interested in power lifting and that he was always quick with a joke.

"Some of the hardest laughter I had at the fitness center were from the jokes he told," said Nick Fillioe, a sports director at the West Chester Area YMCA.

"I would say he was a free spirit, very intelligent," he said. "He was a real smart guy. He knew a little bit about everything.

Is this forum closed now?

Sadly, in yet another defeat for the Indymedia format, an idiot, racist, homophobic right-winger has disrupted discussion by acting like, well, an idiot, racist, homophobic right-winger. I hate to say it, but this is why moderation is a good idea.

A firm set of principles and rigorous application of them would have banned this fucking asshole long ago to places far from where he could continue his idiotic antics without disrupinting us. Sure, he proved he was stupid by doing all this, but he also ended all discussion. That's a high price to pay for supposed "free speech". After all, who has free speech now that no one will post in the thread? No one but that idiot.

Interestingly, what happens is that the wackos have no problem violating our standards, but when people who use this site decide to stand up against it, they are usually decried as promoting censorship. See the defenses of white supremacist posts to see what I mean. The result is an organizing and discussion tool lost to the mythology of free speech.

Look at how Infoshop.org does it for an idea. No racist shit gets posted there but discussion is still wide-ranging and there is no registration of members.

I think allowing registration for some regulars would be a good thing. At least that way these fuckos couldn't hijack people's names. Registration would be totally voluntary. Couldn't registration happen without logging IPs so that Feds don't get any advantage? I think this would also lead to more rational dialogue.

Racial Jokes

BLACK JOKES

Did you hear of the new Black Barbie? * It comes with 12 kids, AIDS and a welfare check .

What's the difference between good black kids and bad black kids? * Good black kids are in medium security prisons.

What is the difference between a shotgun and a black man? * The black man kills more.

What do you call a bus full of blacks? * America's most wanted

What would you call a world without blacks? * A Dream come true!

What is the New York State motto? * Eat, Drink and be Merry, for tomorrow you may be killed by a nigger in Central park."

What do you call a black man in a suit? * Defendant
What do you say to a black man in a three-piece suit? * "Will the defendant please rise."

They had a nuclear explosion in harlem; 50% died from the explosion how did the others die? * They thought the mushroom cloud were some people smokin crack so they went to check things out.

What do you call a black woman who gets an abortion? * A member of Crime stoppers of America.

What happened to the black woman that had an abortion? * Crime stoppers sent her a check for 500 dollars.

What's the most popular transport in Harlem? * Police cars.
What is the most common form of transportation in Harlem? * Ambulances.

How do you get a black kid to take a shower? * Open a fire hydrant, and start selling crack on the other side.

If there are two black guys and a Mexican in a car, who's driving? * The white cop.

Why did blacks evolve huge motherfucking lips? * Blacks discovered weed pipes hundreds of years ago.

Why is the world like a bag of Jelly Beans? * Everyone Hates the Black Ones!

What's long, black, and smelly? * The unemployment line.

What qualifies as good behavior in a Harlem school? * Raising your hand before you pop a cap in the teacher.

What do you call a white guy surrounded by
* Three blacks? A victim.
* Twenty blacks? Coach
* Thirty blacks? Quarterback
* 200 blacks? Warden

Why don't blacks use checks? * Because they find it too hard to sign their names in spray paint.

A white boy and a black boy are having a race down a tunnel. Who won? * The white boy, the nigger had to stop and spray paint "Muthafucka" on the wall.

What is a cocoon? * A black guy with a stutter

What's black, orange, and very pretty? * A nigger on fire.

What do you have if you've got a nigger up to his neck in cement? * Not enough cement.

Why do blacks keep their fists closed when making the "black power" sign? * If they held out an open palm, they'd fall out of the trees!

What happened when the black man looked up his family tree? * gorilla shit in his face

How did the black break his leg raking the leaves? * He fell out of the tree.

Why do police dogs lick their asses so much? * To get the taste of NIGGER out of their mouths!

Why doesn't a black mom let her little boy play in the sand box? * She is afraid that the cat will come and cover it up!
Why aren't there any sandboxes in Harlem? * Cats keep trying to bury the baby niggers.

Why do black people lean to the middle when they drive? * They think the smells coming from the outside.

What do you call a new born black baby * A pile of shit.

Why do blacks carry shit in their wallet? * Identification.
Why does the black man carry a turd in his wallet? * Identification.

What do you call a black man with a peg leg? * Shit on a Stick.

Why don't sharks attack blacks? * They mistake them for whale shit.
Why do blacks never get eaten by sharks? * Sharks like 'em crispy but not burned.

How long does it take a nigger to shit? * Nine months

What is the difference between niggers and dog shit? * The dog shit will eventually dry up, turn white, and quite stinking.
What's the difference between a nigger and a pile of shit? * After a while the shit turns WHITE, and doesn't stink anymore!
What's the difference between a nigger and a pile of cow shit? * The cow shit can be useful!

What is the difference between a black man and a bucket of shit? * The bucket.

What do poor black kids use instead of Play-Doh ? * Fresh dog shit.

Why do blacks want to be like old dry shit? * because its white and it smells less

Why don't black girls wear panties when they go out to eat? * It keeps the flies off the pizza.

Why don't blacks put Oder Eaters in their shoes? * Because it makes them disappear!

Why do blacks smell? * So blind people can hate them too!

Hear about the new perfume for black women? * It's called "Eau de doo dah day."

If the Blair witch was a nigger what would you change the name of the title to? * The Blair Shit Project!

What do you call a black man with no arms? * Trustworthy.

Why are blacks so fast? * All slow ones are in jail

Why don't niggers marry mexicans? * Their kids would be too lazy to steal!

Why do blacks work the midnight shift? * Because they cant be seen in the dark stealing

What did the black kid get for Christmas? * My bike.

What do you do when you see a black person driving a Corvette? * Call the police, he obviously stole it!

How was break dancing invented? * By black kids stealing hubcaps from moving cars.

What do you call a black boy riding a bike? * Thief!

What's the first thing taught in a Harlem driving school? * How to unlock a car with a coat hanger.

Why shouldn't you hit a black boy riding a bike? * Because the bike is probably yours

Why are blacks so strong? * TV's are getting heavier

What do you say when you see your TV floating around at night? * Drop it nigger!

Why do decent white folk shop at blacks yard sales? * To get all their stuff back, of course!

Why do the cars in Brixton have such small steering wheels? * So the niggers can drive with their handcuffs on.

What do you get if you cross a Negro with a Pakistani? * A car thief that can't drive.

What's the difference between a Nigger and Batman? * Batman can go into town without Robin!

Why do niggers have such flat noses? * When they are born the doctor drops them on the floor, steps on the back of their heads and jerks the tail out.

Why are niggers hands and feet white? * When God spray painted them black he said, "Up against the wall, Motherfuckers."

What do you call a bunch of black guys under the C.N Tower? * Pubic Hair

Why do Niggers wear baggy pants? * To hide their tails.

How do you baby-sit black kids? * Wet their lips and stick them to the wall.

How do you keep nigger kids them from jumping on the bed? * Put Velcro on the ceiling.
How do you get them down from the ceiling? * Tell the little Mexican kids next door they're a pinata.

Did you hear about the new Chap Stick for niggers? * It comes in a spray can.

Why do niggers wear high heel shoes? * So their knuckles won't drag on the ground

Why do niggers keep chickens in there backyard? * To teach there kid's how to walk.

How do you kill a nigger? * Pop his lips

What do you get if you cross a nigger and a hedgehog? * A HEDGEWOG

What's tattooed on the inside of every Negro's lip? * Inflate to 50 psi.

Did you here about the new lipstick for niggers * It comes with a spray can

Why can't niggers fly? * Their lips explode at 30,000 feet.

Why are there no nigger astronauts? * Their lips explode at 50,000 feet.

Why do black women have such big purses? * To carry their lipstick.

What do you call a bunch of niggers buried up to their eyeballs? * Afro-turf

What do you call a nigger with a pale face? * Down a quart.

Why do niggers wear wide brimmed hats? * So birds won't shit on their lips

What do you call a nigger with yellow teeth? * Violet crumble

What do you call 10,000 niggers running down the street? * A mud slide.

Why don't niggers drive convertibles? * They would get knocked out by their lips flying around (slapping together)

How do you stop a nigger kid from crying in the car? * Lick his lips and stick him to the window.

What do black girls and bears have in common? * They both suck their paws

Why was the wheelbarrow invented? * To teach Niggers to walk on their hind legs.

What's the difference between a dead dog in the road and a dead nigger in the road? * Skid marks in front of the dog.
What's the difference between a deer in the road and a nigger in the road? * The deer has skid marks in front of it

How does a girl from Harlem practice safe sex? * She locks the car doors.

How do you kill a nigger? * Throw 25 cents under a moving bus.

Why did all the blacks die in Vietnam? * When the sergeant said "Get down!", they got up and started dancing.

If Tarzan and Jane were black, what would Cheetah be? * The brains of the outfit.

What is long and hard on a nigger? * First Grade
What is long and hard on a nigger? * The Fourth Grade.

What is eight miles long and has a combined I.Q. of 68? * The "Martin Luther King Day" parade.

What do you get when you cross a gorilla and a nigger? * A dumb gorilla, you can never make a nigger any smarter!

What do you get when you cross a monkey and a nigger? * Nothing, monkeys are too smart to fuck niggers!

What do you call a nigger with an IQ of 15? * Gifted.
What do you call a nigger with an IQ of 150? * Tribe.

What does PONTIAC stand for? * Poor old nigger thinks its a Cadillac.

What's dumber than three wiggers trying to build a house underwater? * Three niggers trying to burn it down.

Why don't niggers like country music? * Because when they hear hoe- down they think their sisters been shot

The nigger went to the doctor, and the doc said he was impotent. The nigger said "Dang now iz gotsta gets me a new suit", and the doc asked why? * Well...If Iz gotsta be impawtent den iz wantsta looks impawtent

What do you get when you cross a retard with a gang banger nigger? * Someone who spray paints on a chain link fence.

What are the 3 things you cannot give a black guy? * A fat lip, a black eye, or a job.

What do niggers and sperm have in common? * Only one in two million work!

Hear about the new gun called the nigger? * It doesn't work and you can't fire it.

Why don't black people like it when blacks and Mexicans have babies? * The kid might be too lazy to steal!
Why wouldn't the black guy let his daughter marry the Mexican? * He figured the kids would grow up too lazy to steal.

What's The Difference between a nigger and a pizza? * A pizza can feed a family!

What do you do after you see a nigger working hard? * Open your eyes, get up, get dressed, and make your bed. (there's no such thing as a hard working nigger in real life)

What's the difference between a broken-down car and a nigger? * The broken down car will probably work again one day.

Did you hear about the nigger with insomnia? * He kept waking up twice a week.

Why are so many niggers moving to Detroit? * They heard there were no jobs there.

How can you spot a Black masochist? * He's the one working for a living.

How has Jesse Jackson lost the vote of most niggers? * He promised to create jobs for them if elected.

What is a nigger's favorite anti-perspirant? * Unemployment.

How do you starve a nigger? * Hide the food stamps and welfare checks under a bar of soap.

Where is the best place to hide a nigger's food stamps? * Under his work boots.

How do you get twelve niggers in a Volkswagon? * Toss a welfare check in the back seat.

Why will niggers never out-number white people in the USA? * Because if they did, there wouldn't be enough of a tax base to support the welfare system, and they'd all starve!

How do you get 400 niggers in an Escort? * I don't know, but they figure it out.

How do you get niggers out of your neighborhood? * Hide all the good cardboard boxes.

Why was the million monkey march so successful? * No one missed work

What's long and black? * The unemployment line

How do you start a black parade? * By rolling a penny down the street

Did you hear about the hard working black guy? * NO? Neither did I.

Why do niggers always have sex on their minds? * Because of the pubic hair on their heads.

What is a black mans porno magazine? * National Geographic.

What do black people give their daughter when she turns 13? * A baby shower

Why do niggers have red eyes after having sex ? * Because its from all the pepper spray
Why do niggers cry during sex? * Because of the Mace! (sprayed in the face before rape)
Why does Mike Tyson cry during sex? * Mace will do that to you.

How do you stop five niggers from raping a white woman? * Throw them a basketball.

What does a 13 year old black girl say when she's having sex? * Get off me Dad, you're squashing my cigarettes.

What do you call sex with a black man? * Rape!

What is the only way to rape a nigger? * Don't pay her

Why do black girls dye their hair blonde and wear blue contacts? * So black men will date them.

What do you call a white woman who dates a black man? * Color blind!

What does cotton have in common with noses? * Niggers are good at picking both.

What do you call a barn full of dead niggers? * Antique farm equipment (cotton pickers)
What do you call three Niggers hanging in you tool shed? * Old yard tools.

How do you tell if a nigger's been in your house? * The house smells like B.O., the leftover fried chicken is gone, and your toilet's clean as a whistle.

Why do our grandparents refer to their childhood as the "good ole days"? * That's back when they owned niggers.

What do you call a nigger at Princeton? * Janitor.

What is white from above and black up close? * A cotton field.

Why did the nigger cross the road? * Who the hell cares, why the fuck is he out of the cotton field.

Why are there niggers in heaven? * There's toilets to be cleaned there too.

How many Pollock's does it take to clean a bathroom? * None- That's a niggers job!

What was a niggers first words back in 1850? * Yessir Masser, I clean it up real good for ya masser

What do you get when you cross a nigger and an octopus? * I don't know, but it sure can pick some cotton!

What do you say to a nigger with a job? * I'd like a cheeseburger, large fries, and a medium Coke
What do you say to a black man in uniform? * "I'll have a Big Mac with cheese and a coke."

How do you make a nigger nervous? * Take him to an auction.

What was missing from the million man march? * An auctioneer

What's the difference between a black and a snow tire? * A snow tire won't sing when you put chains on it.
What's the difference between a black and a snow tire? * When you put chains on tires they don't start singing amazing grace

What is green and yellow and sits on my front porch? * Well he's my nigger and ill paint him whatever color I like damn it!

Where can you find a good nigger? * In the cemetery.
Where can you find a good nigger? * In the cotton field.

What's the difference between niggers and pit-bulls? * It's still legal to own a pit-bull.

What do you say to Mike Tyson with no arms or legs? * Hey NIGGER!

What do you call a black millionaire physicist? * Nigger!
What do you call a black millionaire physicist? * A tycoon

What would you call the Flintstones if they were black? * Niggers

What is printed on all African products? * "Untouched by human hands."

How many niggers does it take to change a light bulb? * Who cares they're niggers

What do they call a Negro nuclear physicist in Alabama? * Nigger!

When does a black man become a nigger? * When he leaves the room

What do you call a piece of chicken in a deep hole? * A COON Trap.

Why don't niggers celebrate Thanksgiving? * Kentucky Fried Chicken isn't open on holidays.

Hear about G.M.'s new nigger Cadillac? * The glove compartment's big enough to hold a watermelon.

What do you call a nigger fortune cookie? * A popeyes biscuit with a coupon inside.
What do you call a nigger fortune cookie? * A piece of corn bread with a food stamp in it.

Did you hear the NFL is switching to green balls next year? * Have you ever heard of a nigger dropping a watermelon?

What's the definition of mass confusion? * Father's Day in Harlem

How do you kill a thousand niggers? * Blow up Kentucky fried chicken

Do you know why flies have wings? * So they can beat the niggers to the watermelons.
Do you know why flies have wings? * So they can get away from the niggers.

How do you get a black man to commit suicide? * Toss a bucket of KFC into traffic. (End a few more welfare leeches.)

What do you call a bus full of blacks? * A chocolate box

What do you call a black with white hair? * Topdeck

How do you know Adam and Eve weren't black? * Ever try taking a rib from a nigger?

Why do blacks wear white gloves? * So they don't bite off their fingers when they're eating Tootsie Rolls!
Why is mielie pup white? * So blacks don't eat their fingers

How do you keep a nigger quarterback from dropping the ball? * Paint it green and tell him it's a watermelon.

Why don't nigger women wear panties to picnics? * To keep the flies off the chicken.

What is black, white, and rolls off the end of the pier? * A nigger and a seagull fighting over a chicken wing.

What did God say when he made the first black man? * Oh, Shit! * Oh shit I burnt one.

What do you call a black priest? * Holy Shit!

What do you call a black man on top of a church? * Holy Shit!

Why do blacks have two big nostrils? * Its how God picked them up before he painted them.

Did you see the two black men on "That's Incredible"? * One had a job, and the other knew who his father was!

What word starts with "N" and ends with "R" that you never want to call a black person? * Neighbor.

What is the difference between a white owl and a black one? * The white one goes who-who the black one goes who dat who dat

What does a smart nigger, and Santa Clause have in common? * They're both fictional characters!

Why are chimps always frowning? * They know in a million years they are going to turn into niggers.

Why did the ape commit suicide? * It learned it might have evolved from the niggers!

Why do blacks hate aspirin? * Because its white, it works, and they hate picking the cotton out of the bottle.

What does the NAACP really stand for? * Niggers Apes Assholes Coons & Porch monkeys!
What does the NAACP really stand for? * Niggers Are Always Causing Problems
What does the NAACP really stand for? * Ninnies Are Always Cultivating Politicians
What does the NAACP really stand for? * Num-nut African-Americans Cursing People

What do you call a guy raping a black woman? * A negro-philiac

What's the difference between a gangbangin' nigger and a prostitute? * The prostitute can wash her crack and re-sell it.

How do find a black man at night? * Tell him a joke so he smiles

If a white baby died and it would become an angel, what would a black baby become? * A Bat

What does a nigger say on acid? * I.....have.....a.....dream.....

Why are aspirin tablets white? * You want them to work don't you.

Have you ever seen a nigger on the Jetsons? * No, future looks pretty bright, don't it.

What do you call a black man falling down a cliff? * Good Entertainment
What do you call a black man flying back up a cliff? * Black magic

What do you call a nigger lost in the country? * SPOOKED

Why don't blacks go to rodeos? * Because when they here hoe down! they think there mother got shot!

What is it when you find a grain of rice in a bucket? * An Ethiopian who was spewing up all night.

What do you call an Ethiopian with a yeast infection? * Quarter Pounder with cheese.

How can you tell if an Ethiopian is sick? * Another is following him with a bowl and spoon.

Why weren't there any niggers on the Flintstones? * Because they were all monkeys back then stupid.

How can you tell if a black women is having a baby? * When she pulls out her tampon its half eaten.

What do Ethiopians call the Easter bunny? * Dinner

What does a chain saw say? * Note-(say this fast) run nigger nigger run

What is the difference between a black fairy tales and White fairy tales? * White fairy tales start "once upon a time" * Black fairy tales start "yo, you motherfuckers aint gonna believe this shit."

Why are the trees in harlem so close? * Public transportation

What do u call 40 blacks in a swimming pool? * co-co puffs

What do you call a black man in an oven? * A burnt cookie

What goes Fee Fi Foe Fee Fi Foe Fee? * Mike Tyson giving out his phone number

What says "HO DE DO! HO DE DO! HO DE DO!"? * Three black guys runnin for the elevator door.

Why does Stevie Wonder smile all the time? * He doesn't know he's black
Why can't Stevie Wonder read? * He's black

What is the American dream? * All the blacks go back to Africa with a Jew under each arm!

Why did the ape commit suicide? * It learned it might have evolved from the niggers!

What's black and white and red all over? * A Ku Klux Klan house-warming party!

Who were the three most famous women in black history? * Aunt Jemima, Diana Ross, and Mother Fucker!

What's black and white and red all over? * A black man and seagull fighting over a french fry on the Jersey shore!

What's black and white and goes rolling along the boardwalk? * A black man and a pigeon fighting over a chicken wing!

Why does the Hartz Mountain Tick Collar come in fluorescent colors? * So coons can wear costume jewelry, too!

Did you hear about Evil Kneivel's cousin, Ku Klux Knieval? * He tried to jump over 50 niggers - With A Steamroller.

Why don't blacks stick their heads out of moving vehicles? * Their lips catching the wind will beat them to death.

What's green and pink and purple and orange? * A black man dressed for church

Did you hear about the little black kid who got diarrhea? * He thought he was melting!

What did the little black kid say when Santa Clause came down the chimney saying, "Ho ho ho!"? * "Where's ma mamma, mutha phucka?"

What do you call a black hitchhiker? * Stranded.

How do black kids play hide and seek? * They turn out the lights

What do you call two black motocycle cops? * Chocolate CHiPs.

What do you call a black Frenchmen? * Jacques Custodian

Why do blacks tint their car windows? * They don't-- it's the black rubbing off.

What's green and pink and purple and orange? * A black man dressed for church.

What's Big, Long, Black and smelly? * The Welfare Line in Harlem.

What the most confusing day in the black neighborhood? * Fathers Day

How do we know that Adam and Eve were not black? * Have you ever tried to take a rib away from a nigger?

Did you hear about the black man and the Mexican who opened a restaurant? * It's called Nacho Mama.

What are the six words you never ever want to hear? * "Hi, I be yo' new neighbor."

How is transportation being improved in Harlem? * They're planting the trees closer together.

Why does California have so many fags and New York have so many balcks? * California had first choice.

What is the difference between a "RAP" group's manager and a proctologist? * A proctologist only deals with one asshole at a time.

What do you call a black-midget in Ireland? * A lepra-coon.

What is white yet has a black asshole? * The Washington D.C. Mayor's office.

What do you call a conversation between Jesse Jackson & James Brown? * Gibberish

What's the difference between the old black mama and an elephant? * Usually about 20 lbs.

What do you call a black prostitute with braces? * A Black & Decker pecker wrecker.

Why were there only 49 contestants in the Miss Ebonics contest? * Because no one wanted to wear the sash that said I-DA-HO!!!

How many blacks does it take to change a light bulb? * 5, 1 to change it and 4 to hold the sound equipment.

What's the fastest thing on 2 legs? * A chicken being chased by a Cambodian.

What do you get if you cross a black guy and a Jew? * A janitor in a law firm

What's the black stuff between an elephants toes? * Slow black men

What do you get when you cross a white woman with a black man? * An abortion

Why don't black women become nuns? * They only know one word to use after mother, and it isn't superior

What do you call a black man on a ship who feel overbroad? * Oil Spill

Why did The Nigger from Nation of Islam wear his nicest Tuxedo to his vasectomy? * He figured if we was going to be impotent, he wanted to look impotent. * (quote) Cuz if I'ma gonsta Be Impotent I wants to look Impotent.

What do you call an apartment full of niggers? * A COON-dominium.

What did Abe Lincoln say after a 3 day drunk? * "I set WHO free?"

What do you call an Ethiopian with a pickle on his head? * A quarter-pounder.

Why does Alabama have niggers and California have earthquakes? * California got first pick.

Did you hear that the KKK bought the movie rights to Roots? * They're going to play it backwards so it has a happy ending.

What is the difference between a white owl and a black owl? * A white owl goes, "Who, who," a black owl goes, "Who dat? Who dat?"

What happened when the Ethiopian fell in the crocodile pit? * He ate six crocs before they could pull him out.

What do Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles have in common? * They're both niggers.

How come Stevie Wonder & Ray Charles can't read? * They're both niggers.

What do you get when you cross a nigger with a Vietnamese? * Nothing. There are some things even a Vietnamese won't do.

What do you get when you cross a nigger and a chink? * A ape that eats a hell of a lot of rice.

What's the fastest animal in the world? * The Ethiopian chicken.

Did you hear about Evel Knieval's new motorcycle stunt? * He's going to ride through Ethiopia with a sandwich tied to his back.

Why do seagulls have wings? * To beat the niggers to the dump.

What do you call an Ethiopian with a feather up his ass? * A dart.

Why are niggers always buried 12 feet deep? * Deep down they're good people.

What's the difference between a porch monkey and a yard ape? * The length of the chain.

What do niggers use to wash their white clothes? * BLEEATCH!

What did the nigger say when he slid down the zebra? * Now you see me, now you don't, now you see me, now you don't.

What is the difference between a pair of jeans and an Ethiopian? * A pair of jeans only has one fly on it.

What do you call two Ethiopians in a gold sleeping bag? * Twix.
What do you call two niggers in a sleeping bag? * Twix

What's the difference between a nigger and a letter? * You can send a letter back to where it came from.

What's the difference between the holy grail and a nigger's daddy? * You may find the grail.

How does the navy use niggers? * They debone them and use them as wetsuits.

Why do niggers like basket ball? * It involves running, shooting and stealing.

What has four legs and a black arm? * A happy pitbull.

How many nigger college students does it take to screw in a light bulb? * Only one, but he gets 6 credits for it.

Hear about the Nigger guy that bought new snow tires? * They melted on the way home.

Two men were walking together. One American, one Nigger. The American said "look a dead bird" the other looked up and said "where?"

A Nigger girl called up her druggist and asked what to do for her boyfriend's dandruff and he recommended Head & Shoulders. She called back a week later and asked, "How do you give someone shoulders?"

What do you call 4 cops shooting a black guy 41 times? * Target practice.

What's the difference between a pothole and blacks? * You'd swerve to avoid a pothole, wouldn't you?

A black man, a Jew and a spic get shoved off a building at the same time- which one hits pavement first? * Who cares.

If I had enough cash to send half the blacks in America back to Africa.... * Id choose to send them all just half way.

Why was there only 1 black man on the space shuttle Challenger? * They didn't know it was going to blow up.

What do you call a black man at a skinhead rally? * Soon to be an ex-nigger.

"Shotgun shoot'in"
What do you do when you see a black man with one leg? * Stop laughing and re-load
What do you do when a black man running towards you with no head * Stop laughing and re-load
What do you do if you see a black man running through your yard with half his head shot off? * Quit laughing and re-load!

What is black inside and yellow outside and makes you laugh? * A bus full of blacks falling off a cliff.

What is yellow on the outside and black on the inside and a lot of fun to watch? * A bus full of blacks going over a cliff

What would be a damn shame about a bus full of blacks going off a cliff? * One seat empty!

What do you call three blacks sitting in a garden? * Fertilizer.

What is wrong with 4 blacks going over a cliff in a Cadillac? * It seats 5

What do you call 50,000 blacks in the bottom of the sea? * A good start.

How do you drown a black man? * drop a quarter in the bottom of a pool

What do you call 100 niggers on the moon? * Problem
1,000 niggers ? * Problem
All the niggers ? * Problem solved

How do you stop a blacks man from drowning?
* Take your foot off his head - But who would want too..
* Take your foot off his head … on second thought, Don't!
* You don't.

How many blacks does it take to roof a building? * Ten, if you slice them thin enough.

How many blacks does it take to pave a road? * Depends on how you slice them

What do you throw to a drowning black man in the middle of a lake? * His wife and kids!

What do you call the inventor of the noose? * A genius

What do you call 1000 blacks going over a cliff? * Nigger falls

What do you get when you drop 10,000 blacks from an airplane? * New parking lot.

What's the difference between a truckload of watermelons and a truckload of nigger babies? * You can't unload a truckload of watermelons with a pitchfork!

Hear about the new bumper sticker that says "Run, Jesse, Run"? * You put it on the front of your car.

How do you wipe out 250 ape families? * Blow up Kmart.

What do you call 100 parachuting blacks? * Skeet.

What are you doing when you smile and blink at a blacks? * Aiming a shotgun at him

Why do blacks call white people "honkies"? * That's the last noise they hear before the white people run them over.

What's Brown and Black and looks good on a nigger? * A Rotweiler -or- A Doberman Pinscher.

What's black and red and gets caught in a revolving door? * A black man with a spear in his back!

What do you call three blacks at a skinhead barbeque? * Charcoal. Kentucky Fried Nigger.

How do you kill a black man? * Aim for the stereo.

What do the KKK and steroids have in common? * They both make black guys run faster

How many black guys does it take to paint a wall? * Depends on how hard you throw them

How do you stop a nigger from going out? * Pour more gas on him.

What do you do if you run over a nigger? * Reverse.

What's black and red, wears a high top Reeboks and cant go through a revolving door? * A black man with a spear through his head!

What is black, runny, and scratches on glass? * A nigger in a microwave.

What is a nigger? * Proof that skunks fuck monkeys.

What did the Alabama sheriff call the nigger who had been shot 15 times? * The worst case of suicide he had ever seen.

Name 2 things that blacks and faggots have in common? * Their dicks are both brown, and they both spread AIDS.

Why are blacks such good dancers? * Because they spent the first nine months of their lives dodging a coat hanger.

A black kid and a white kid in the third grade. Who has the bigger dick? * The black kid , and why, he is 18 years old.

What's the difference between a nigger and a Christmas ornament? * A Christmas ornament doesn't scream when you hang it from a tree.

How do you keep blacks out of your back yard? * Hang one in the front yard.

How do you stop a blacks from hanging around in your front yard? * Hang him in the back

How can you tell a black is well hung? * You can only fit one finger between the rope and his neck.

How do you get a black down from a tree * Cut the rope (on second thought, don't!)

What does a black and a apple have in common? * They both look good hanging from a tree
What do black people and candy canes have in common? * They both look good hanging on a tree.

Did you hear that I had a black man in my family tree? * He's been hanging there since last summer.

Why is there only two pallbearers at a black's funeral? * Because their is only two handles on a garbage can!

What do you do if you see your TV float away at night? * Grab a shotgun and try to shoot the fucking nigger!

Why do black people make good gynecologist? * They are used to big lips, curly hair, and bad breath.

Why did god give niggers big dicks? * He felt bad about what he did to their hair.

What's a black mermaid? * A carp with tits.

Why did the nigger run when his girlfriend said she wanted to give him a blowjob? * He was afraid it would cancel his unemployment benefits.

Why do niggers have sex all night? * Because they don't go to work the next morning.

What do niggers say during foreplay? * "If you scream, bitch, I'll kill you!"
What's the definition of nigger sex? * Don't scream bitch or I will kill you

Why do Niggers prefer the doggie style position for lovemaking? * They can both watch Soul Train on TV that way.

What is Harlem's definition of "Relative Humidity"? * The pool of sweat that forms in the small of their sisters back when their doin' her doggie style.

Why was the nigger acquitted of the rape charge on the grounds of temporary insanity? * Because when he got an erection, there was no blood left to flow to his brain!

Why are black men hung better then white men? * Because little white boys had toys to play with!

What do nigger pimps and farmers have in common? * They both need a hoe to stay in business!

What is the definition of a black virgin? * An ugly 8-year-old who can outrun her brother

Why did god create orgasms? * So niggers know when to stop.

Why did God create Aids? * To control the niggers out of control population

How can you tell if a black women is pregnant? * Shove a banana up her pussy. If it comes out half eaten, you know there is a little monkey up there.

What's the difference between black pussy and a bowling ball? * You can eat a bowling ball.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

GAY JOKES

What's "tender love?" * Two homosexuals with hemorrhoids.

What do gays call hemmorroids? * Speed Bumps

What do gay South Africans get? * Apart-AIDS.

Know how you get hearing AIDS? * From listening to assholes!

What did the lesbian gas attendant say when the leggy blonde pulled in? * Mind if I check under your hood?

What charges can you bring against a transvestite? * Male fraud.

Did you hear about the gay bible? * The first couple was Adam and Steve.

What happened when two faggot sergeants met? * They talked about their privates!

How can you tell a macho fag at the beach? * By the shaving scars on his legs.

What's another name for AIDS? * Goner-rhea.

What's Perpetration H? * Dingleberry Jam.

If you get malaria from mosquitoes and Lyme disease from ticks, what do you get AIDS from? * Asshoppers.

What's the leading cause in death with lesbians? * Hair Balls

What is the definition of confusion? * Twenty blind lesbians in a fish market

What does GAY stand for? * Got Aids Yet!

What do you call 2 gays in wheelchairs? * Rolaids

What is the first symptom of AIDS? * A sharp penetrating pain in the arse

What's the favorite pickup line in a gay bar? * May I push your stool in

What do you call a Jewish homosexual? * He-blew.

What do you call a bouncer in a gay bar? * A flamethrower!

What is the quickest way to clear out a men's restroom? * Say, "Nice dick."

How many lesbians does it take to put in a light bulb? * 3, one to put it in ,and two to drive her to the emergency room to have it taken back out.

What do you call a gay guy with diarrhea? * A juicy fruit.

Why do homosexuals use ribbed condoms? (BR) * So they have traction to get out of the mud.

How are farmers and homosexuals the same? * They both have mud on there rubbers.

Why are gays so gay? * BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY!!

How does a gay guy fake an orgasm? * He spits on his partners back!

What do you call two fags named bob? * Oral roberts!

"Mommy, one of the kids at school called me a sissy!" "So what did you do, Benny?" "I hit him with my purse!"

How do you fit four fags into a crowded bar? * Turn the stool upside down!

Why was the faggot fired from his job at the sperm back? * For drinking on the job!

What does A.I.D.S. mean? * Another Infected Dick Sucker

What does A.I.D.S. mean? * Anus Injected Death Serum

What's another name for AIDS? * Toxic Cock Syndrome!

How can you tell when you enter a gay church? * Only half the congregation are on their knees

In the jungles of Africa how do you separate the men from the boys? * With a crowbar

What is the difference between a gay and a refrigerator? * A. the refrigerator doesn't fart when you pull the meat out.

Three queers are sitting in a hot tub one night, when a pool of cum floats by. One asked the others, "Who farted?"

In a duplex there lived two gay couples, male on one side, female on the other. Early one morning, there's a fire. Who gets out first? * The male couple of course. They'd packed their shit the night before!

What did one condom say to another condom in a gay bar? * Lets go get shitfaced.

A bus of gays and a bus of dykes are headin to the airport; which one will get there first? * The gays cause they already have their shit packed.

A man walks into a bar and says "I'm so thirsty I would lick the sweat off a cows dick", then the gay guy sitting next to him replies "MOO!"

How can you tell when you're at a gay Barbeque? * The hot dogs taste like shit!

Why are gay people Gay? * Because they would much rather stick their penises in dirty places than clean ones!

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HISPANIC JOKES

"America.. the ONLY country in the world that expects its citizens to learn the language of immigrants instead of the immigrants learning ours!"

Why do niggers put their garbage out in clear plastic bags? * So Mexicans can window shop.

Why do Mexicans buy Cabbage Patch dolls? * Because they come with birth certificates.

What's the difference between a cue ball and an illegal immigrant? * The harder you hit them, the more English you get out of them. -or- The harder you hit the cue ball, the more English you get out of it.

Why don't niggers marry Mexicans? * Their kids would be too lazy to steal!

Why doesn't Mexico ever host the Olympics? * Because all the Mexicans that can run, jump, and swim are in America already.

What do you call a Mexican without a lawn mower? * Unemployed

There is a Mexican, a nigger and an Asian in a car, who is driving? * The Cop!

Why doesn't Mexico have a NAVY? * Because cardboard don't float.

Why is it wrong to push a car off a cliff with three Mexicans in it? * Because you can fit five?

What's a Mexican fortune cookie? * A taco shell with food stamps in it.

What do you call a Mexican on a bike? * A thief.

Why do you never hit a Mexican on a bike? * Because the bike might be yours.

Why don't whites throw rocks at Mexican driven cars? * Because it might be theirs.

How many Mexicans can you fit in a Pinto? * 20
How do you get them in? * Throw in a five dollar bill.
How do you get them out? * Throw in a work application

What do you call a Mexican baptismal? * Bean dip
What do you call a Mexican being baptized? * Bean dip.
What do you call 5000 Mexican's in a pool? * Bean dip

Why do Mexicans have mustaches? * They want to be like their moms!

Where do u hide cash from a Mexican? * Under the soap!

Why do Mexicans drive low riders? * So they can pick lettuce while they cruise

How do you know how many Mexicans are in a Safeway? * Count the Pintos and multiply by 20.

Why were there only 3000 Mexicans at the Alamo? * They only had 4 cars.

What do you call a Mexican in a two-story house? * Adopted.

Who's the richest person in Mexico? * The one that gets it.....

How do you take a census in Mexico? * Throw in a bar of soap and count the number of people running away.

How do you count the population of Mexico? * Roll a quarter down the street and count the people running after it.

What did the Mexican kid down the block get for his birthday? * The bike you threw out 3 weeks ago.

Know why Mexican women wear long dresses? * To hide the bug strips.

Why did the Mexicans fight so hard to take the Alamo? * So they could have four clean walls to write on.

Why do Mexican girls wear panties? * To keep their ankles warm.

What's the most confusing day for a Mexican? * Father's Day!

How do you tell a Mexican girl from a Jewish girl? * A Mexican girl's jewelry is fake, but her orgasms are real.

What do you call a pregnant Mexican? * Bean Bag.
What do you call an old Mexican woman? * Bean bag.

How many spics does it take to have a bath? * Five, one to lie in the tub and four to spit on him.

Why don't Mexicans play hide and seek? * Because no one will look for them.

Why do Mexicans have re-fried beans? * Have you ever heard of a Mexican doing anything right the first time?

How can you tell a Mexican airline? * It's the one with hair under the wings.

What do you get when you cross a Mexican with an octopus? * I don't know but it sure can pick lettuce.

Why can't spics be firefighters? * They can't tell Jose from hose B.

How do you get a Mexican woman pregnant? * Jizz in her shoes, and let the flies do the rest!

How many Mexicans does it take to grease an axle? * One if you hit 'em just right.

How many Mexicans does it take to grease a combine? * It all depends upon how fast you run them through.

Why is a Spic like a Skunk? * Because they're half black and half white, and smell like shit.

Why doesn't the state of Texas electrocute Mexican prisoners anymore? * Grease fires are too hard to put out.

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JEWISH JOKES

How does a Jew know his wife is dead? * The sex stays the same, but the dishes pile up in the sink

What's the Jewish version of foreplay? * Half an hour of begging.

What does a Jew mean when he says "TRUST ME"? * Screw You!

Jews and Money (what a selfish beast):

How was copper wiring invented? * Two Jews fighting over a penny!

How is Christmas celebrated in a Jewish home? * They put parking meters on the roof!

Why is money green? * Because Jews pick it before it's ripe!

Do you know how to keep Jews out of a country club? * Let one in, and he'll keep the rest out.

How can you tell the mother-in-law at a Jewish wedding? * She's the one on her hands and knees picking up the rice!

Did you hear about the new tires, Firestein? * They not only stop on a dime, they also pick it up!

Why did the Jews wander in the desert for 40 years? * Someone dropped a quarter!

Why do Jews have such big noses? * Because air is free.

What's the definition of a queer Jew? * Someone that likes girls more then money.

What's the object of a Jewish football game? * To get the quarter back!

How do you lose a Jewish cop? * Drive through a toll booth (cheap Jew)

What's the difference between a Jew and a canoe? * A canoe tips.

Why do Jewish girls like prostitution? * Because you got it, you sell it, and you still got it.

How can you tell if your limo is owned by a Jew? * It has a pay phone in the back seat.

What's the best thing to do before a visit to a Jewish dentist? * Count your money before he gives you the gas.

Why don't Jewish soldiers wear bullet proof vests? * Because they cant get a refund if they don't work.

How do you confuse a Jewish guy? * Put him in a round room, tell him there's a penny in the corner.

Why do Jews have thick windows? * So their kids don't hear the ice-cream truck.

What's the shortest book in the world? * The Jewish handbook of business ethics.

What's the real American dream? * For every black guy to swim back to Africa with a JEW under each arm!

If Tarzan and Jane were Jewish, what would Cheetah be? * A fur coat!

Why don't Jews eat pork? * They may be a lot of things, but CANNIBALS they're not!

What's a Jewish dilemma? * Free ham.

Why aren't Jews attacked by sharks? * Professional courtesy!

What did the Jewish mother ask her daughter when she learned she had an affair? * Who catered it?

What's the difference between a Jewish bitch and a barracuda? * Nail polish.

What's the difference between an elephant and a Jew? * An elephant eventually forgets.

What's the difference between karate and judo? * Karate is a form of self-defense, and judo is what bagels are made of.

Did you hear that the limbo was invented by the Jews? * Yeah, from sneaking into pay toilets.

What do you call ten Jewish bitches in a basement? * A WHINE cellar.

Why did the Jewish mother have herself entombed at Bloomingdales? * So her daughter would visit at least twice a week.

What's the difference between a vulture and a Jew? * A vulture waits until you're dead to eat your heart out!

What do you call a Jewish homosexual? * He-blew.

What do you call the Jewish mafia? * The kosher nostra.

What do you get when you cross a Jew with a Puerto Rican? * A superintendent who thinks he owns the building.

What do you get when you cross a chinaman with a Jewish mother? * Someone who makes misfortune cookies.

Would you classify shindlers list as drama, or war epic? * Neither, it was a comedy!

Why don't Jews drink? * It interferes with their suffering!

Why don't Jews like oral sex? * It's too close to the gas chamber.

What does an apple and a Jew have in common? * They both look good hanging from a tree!

What's the difference between a Jew and an apple pie? * An apple pie doesn't scream when you put it in the oven!

How do you fit 6 million Jews into a car? * Two in the front, three in the back, and the rest in the ashtray!

What's the difference between a circumcision and crucifixion? * In a crucifixion, they throw the whole Jew out!

What candy did Hitler hate more then any other? * Jew Jew Beans... Although I heard he enjoyed them "roasted!"

What do you call 5 Jews in the back of a truck going off the edge of a cliff? * A waste, you can fit 12!

Did you hear how the Germans fit the most people in a VW bug? * There where two big Germans in the front, two big Germans in the back, and 88 Jews in the ash tray.

What is the difference between a pizza and a Jew? * A pizza won't scream when you put it in the oven.

What's the best thing that ever came out of Auschwitz? * An Empty Bus.

Why Hitler committed suicide? * Because he saw his gas bill.

What did the Auschwitz guard say when Hitler payed a surprise visit? * If I knew you where coming, I'd have baked a kike!

What happens when a Jew with an erection walks into a wall? * He breaks his nose.

Why do Jewish bitches only sleep with circumcised men? * They want 20% off everything!
Why do Jewish women go for circumcised men? * They can't resist 10% off!

Did you hear about the Jewish child molester? * He hid in the bushes and said, "Hey little boy, wanna buy some candy?"

Did you hear about the Jew bitch who told her husband, "Give me 10 inches and make it hurt."? * He fucked her twice and threw her down the stairs

How do you know when a Jewish women has an orgasm? * She drops her nail file!

How do you stop a Jewish girl from fucking you? * Marry her!

Why do Jewish men like to watch porno movies backwards? * They like the part where the hooker gives the money back!

Roses are redish, Violits are bluish, if it wasn't for Christmas we'd all be jewish.

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ASIAN JOKES

What do you call a Chinese walking a dog? * A vegetarian

What do you call a Chinese test tube baby? * No Fun Son

How do you say watermelon in Chinese? * Coon Chow

Why is there no Disneyland in China? * No ones tall enough to go on the good rides.

Did you hear about the new Chinese cookbook? * It's called 101 ways to cook your dog.

Did you hear about the Chinese couple that had a retarded baby? * They named him Sum Ting Wong.

Why can't an American couple have a Chinese baby? * Because two whites cant make a Wong.

How do you blindfold an oriental? * Use tooth floss

Why do Asian people hate sprinklers? * Cause it goes chink, chink, chink, chink, chink, gook, gook, gook, gook

What are chinks? * A waste of white

How do chinks name their kids? * They throw silverware down the stairs -OR- They dump chop-sticks down the stairs

What do you get when you cross a Puerto Rican with a Chinaman? * A car thief who can’t drive

What do you call a fat Chinese person? * A chunk

What did the Chinese Premier say to Clinton as he boarded Air Force One to leave China? * Rotsa Ruck on your next erection

Why don't Japanese people like mushrooms? * They remind them of nuclear bomb that was dropped on them

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BLACK STORIES

"Car trouble"
There was a nigger on the side of the road who was fixing his tire, so another nigger ran up to him and says, "great job my brother, you take the tire and I'll snatch the radio."

"12 nigga nigga"
One day a lil white boys out n the middle of East LA jumpin up and down on this lanhole yell 12 nigga nigga 12 nigga nigga. then tyron, this lil black boy walks up to him and says" Hey man! what the hell are you doin?" well, i'm jumpn up and down on this here manhole yellin 12 nigga nigga....Try it, its fun he says to the lil black boy. The kids hesitant, but does it anyway. lil Tyrons jumpin up and down yellin at the top of his lungs....12 nigga nigga, 12 nigga nigga when all of a sudden the lil white boy slides the lid off and the black boy falls in.

He replaces the lid and proceeds....13 nigga nigga, 13nigga nigga....

"Black boy cooks with Mom"
A 6 year old nigger boy is watching is Momma cook in the kitchen and asks if he can help. She says sure go on the top shelf and get the flower so we can make the fried chicken. He is a little too short so he gets a stool reaches for the flower then, boom, and falls all over him. Boy says " Mommy Mommy look at me I'm white now. Mommy smacks him across the face "now go tell your daddy what you just said. "Daddy daddy, look at me I'm white I'm white, daddy knocks him over the head with his 40, "Go tell your grandmamma what you said. "Granny granny look at me, I'm white I'm white. Granny beats the boy with her cane. The black boy walks away and says " Man I've only been white for 5 minutes and I already hate Niggers"

"A White Mans Wish"
A white man was walking along the beach one day when he happened upon a bottle. When he opened it, a genie popped out and said, "Hey!" The man replied, "you're a genie, right?" "Yes," said the occupant of the bottle. "I'm a genie. What about it?" "Well," the man says, "you're supposed to grant me three wishes, right?" "NO!" says the genie. "That ended centuries ago. I don't do that anymore. I'm retired now. Just put me back on the bottle and drop me back on the beach where you found me." "Awhttp://www..c'mon!" persisted the man. "Grant me a wish!" "Oh...all right!" the genie rolled his eyes. "You get one wish...and ONE WISH ONLY! And it had BETTER be exactly what you want because it WILL come true!" The man was ecstatic. He scratched his head, thought about it for a while, and finally whispered something in the genie's ear. "Okay," said the genie. "Your wish will come true at nine o' clock tomorrow morning! Now put me back in the bottle!" "Great!" the man said. He put the genie back on the beach and went home. He got a good night's sleep, called his girlfriend and asked her to come over, took a nice long hot shower..... At exactly 9:00 AM, the doorbell rang. The man opened it to find three Skinheads standing at his door each holding an arm of rope, eyeing him suspiciously. "Tell us," one finally said. "Are you the guy who wanted to be hung like a nigger?"

"Sears Towers"
There's a nigger, a Canadian and an American on top of one of the sears towers. The American says to the nigger, "I bet you I can jump off of here and hit the wind current just right - floating softly to the ground." The nigger looks amazed at the American. "I dont be leave it sucka, ya fuckin wit me aint ya?" the nigger says. So the American says, "Ok, Ill prove it to you." The American leaps off the building and floats all the way down. Once down, he runs all the way up the stairs to the Canadian and the nigger. "See, I told ya nigger... now you give it a try." "Otay," the nigger says as he leaps off the building. "SPLAT!" the nigger is splattered all over the side walk. The Canadian looks over at the American and says "You know Superman, sometimes you can be pretty mean."

"Robot Caddy's"
This guy walks into the proshop and asks for 18 holes and a caddy. The proshop clerk says "well I can get you the 18 holes but were all out of caddy's. However we have 7 new robot caddy's would you like to be the 1st to try one?" The man says "ok ill try one." the man walks up to the 1st hole and says "well I guess ill use my driver for this" then the robot caddy blurts out in a robotic voice "sir i suggest you use your 3-wood that's too much club for this hole." the man pulls out his 3-wood and drives the ball, it landed 10 ft from the hole, the man says "wow that was amazing!". He comes onto the putting green and says "well this putt is going right to left." the robot caddy chirps up and says "sir the putt is going left to right!" the man listens and does as the robot caddy says and birdies it. the man plays the rest of the day and plays his best game ever. he walks in the proshop and says "hey! I just played my best game ever! ill come back next week and be sure to save me 18 holes and a robot caddy!" the man walks in the next week and says "ill take 18 holes and 1 robot caddy." the clerk says well i can get you the 18 holes but we had to get rid of the robot caddy's. the man asks why? the proshop clerk says well the glare from there shiny metal sides were blinding the golfers. the man says why didn't you paint them black? the clerk says well we did and the next day 3 didn't show up for work and the other 4 robbed the proshop!

"Wild Animals And Niggers"
Three white people were snowmobileing when one of them noticed the others had guns with them. So he asked them why they were carrying them. The other man said you never know when you may run into wild animals or niggers. But of course we never kill wild animals.

"Blacks in Heaven"
Gabriel came to the lord and said, "I have to talk to you, I have a problem. I know you made us and we have to love everybody, but our Black folk up here in Heaven are causing some problems. They are winging on the Pearly Gates, my horn is missing, barbecue sauce is all over their robes, hamhock, sparerib, and pigfeet bones are all over the streets of Gold, some are walking around with one wing, they have been late taking their turn in keeping the stairway to Heaven clean, there are watermelon seeds all over the clouds, some aren't even wearing their halos, saying it doesn't fit right with their hair styles." The Lord said, "I made them special, as I did you, my angel. Heaven is home to all my children. If you really want to know about problems, let's call the Devil." The Devil answered the phone, "Hello? Dang, hold on." The Devil returned to the phone and said, "Hello Lord, what can I do for you?" The Lord replied, "Tell me what kind of problems you are having down there." The Devil said, "Wait one minute", and put the Lord on hold. After 5 minutes he returned to the phone, and said, "Okay, I'm back. What was the question?" The Lord said, "What kind of problems are you having down there?" The Devil said, "Man, I don't beli......hold on, Lord." This time the Devil was gone for 15 minutes. The Devil returned and said, "I'm sorry Lord, I can't talk to you right now. These Negroes dun put the fire out, and are trying to install air conditioning!

"Sheriff Verdict"
A Negro's body was found on the outskirts of a small Mississippi town. The victim had been bound hand and foot, stabbed seventeen times, and had six bullet wounds in his body. "What's your verdict, sheriff?" asked a reporter. "Worst case of suicide I ever saw!" replied the lawman.

"Advice"
Two guys work together - a black guy and a white guy. The black guy notices that the white guy always came to work with a smile on his face. He asks him "Man, how come you come to work with a smile on your face every day?" The white guy replied "That's because I make love to my wife every morning before work." Amazed the black guy asks him how he gets his wife to make love to him every morning. "That's easy," the white guy said. "I just tell her the same poem when I wake up: Blondie, Blondie, eyes so blue, I just love waking up and making love to you!" Well, determined the black guy decides to take his friends advice. The next day the black guy shows up to work all beat to hell - black eyes, broken nose, fat lip... the works. The white guy says, "Man, what happened to you???" The black guy says "I don't know, I went home and tried your advice." "Well, what poem did you tell your wife?" the white guy asked. The black guy replied: "Nappy head, Nappy head, eyes like a frog, If I could roll your fat ass over, I'd do you like a dog!"

"Bar"
A Chinese man walks into a bar and after seeing that the bartender is black shouts "Gimme a jigger Nigger". The black man tells him that it wasn't a nice thing to say, and how would he like the same treatment. The Chinese man explains he wouldn't give a shit, so the black man says "Okay, you get behind the bar and we'll try it again." The Chinese man gets behind the bar and the nigger goes outside. After a few seconds the black man comes in and says, "Gimme a drink, Chink". The Chinese man stares at him and says "Fuck off boy, we don't serve niggers in here!"

"The Barn"
A Jew, a Hindu and a nigger were driving in the country one night when their car broke down. They walked to a nearby farm house and asked if they could spend the night. The farmer told them yes, but he only had two extra beds but he had a clean barn full of fresh straw and one of them would have to spend the night there. The Jew said he had spent several years on a kibutz in Israel and sleeping in a barn wouldn't bother him. Out to the barn goes the Jew and everybody else went to bed. Fifteen minutes later there was a knock at the door and there stood the Jew. He said he couldn't sleep in the barn because there was a pig in the barn and his religion forbid it. The Hindu said no problem, he had grown up in Bombay and he wouldn't have a problem sleeping in a clean barn with a pig. Out to the barn goes the Hindu and everybody else went to bed. Fifteen minutes later there was a knock at the door and there stood the Hindu. He said he couldn't sleep in the barn because there was a cow in the barn and his religion forbid it. The nigger said no problem, he had grown up in south L.A. and there was no way a pig or a cow was going to keep him from a good nights sleep. Out to the barn goes the nigger and everybody else went to bed. Fifteen minutes later there was a knock at the door and there stood the pig and the cow.

"A yuppie, a black man, and a cowboy"
There's three guys sitting around a campfire; a yuppie, a black man, and a cowboy. The yuppie is drinking Michelob, he jugs it down, throws the bottle in the air, pulls out his pistol, shoots the bottle and says, "This is the Life!" The black man is drinking Miller, jugs it down, throws the bottle in the air, pulls out his pistol, shoots the bottle and says, "Taste great!" The cowboy is drinking Old Milwaukee, he jugs it down, throws the bottle in the air, pulls out his pistol, shoots the nigger in the head and says, "This is the way it was meant to be!!"

"Doctors Emergency"
A black couple goes to bed and when the girl wakes up the next day she takes a look at her husband and screams because he is white from his ears up. Immediately she wakes him up and they both rush to the doctors office. The doctor examines him and goes in the back to get some medicine. Out he steps with a mixture of brown liquid and tells they guy to drink. The guy drinks and with a bad expression remarks, "that was terrible, it tasted like shit" to which the doctors replies, "yes, you were a quart low!"

"White Wash"
A black kid is white washing a fence. After a while he notices that he is getting whitewash all over himself. He decides, as he's always wanted to be white anyway, to completely cover himself in white paint. He goes home. As soon as his mother sees him, she says, "You better wash that white off before your daddy sees you, or he'll tear you up!" Yeah, Yeah. So on the way to the bathroom, his brother meets him and beats him for being white. Before he can make it to the bathroom, his dad walks in. He yells, curses, and finally beats the kid to within an inch of his life for painting himself white. As he's scrubbing the paint off, he looks in the mirror, and says, "You know. I'm just beginning to understand this here integration crap. I done been a white boy 15 minutes and I already hate 3 niggers!"

"Harassing Truckers"
Two Georgia State Troopers are on duty watching for speeding truckers on the interstate. These 2 troopers hate truckers. They become bored and pull in behind a truck. The driver is hauling a load of bowling balls. He gets nervous with the cops behind him and pulls off onto a side street to see if the troopers will follow. On the side street, a little nigger kid standing in the street with a bicycl

So, will that racist post be allowed to stand? One hopes not, but given AzIndymedia's weak policy on racist posts, the post above this will probably still be here next week.

Would Pro-War 'Libertarians' Have Supported the New Deal?

It seems like a stupid question, doesn’t it? Everyone I’ve ever met who claims to be a libertarian believes the New Deal was the epitome of U.S. socialism and a disaster in practice. Though many self-proclaimed libertarians defend Franklin Roosevelt in his capacity as commander in chief during World War II, they usually regard the New Deal as American collectivism at its worst – despite the fact that the war itself saw far more nationalization of industry and assaults on the free market than what occurred during the New Deal.

For pro-war "libertarians," the reasons for this are obvious. National defense is a legitimate function of government; social welfare is not. U.S. entry into World War II was defensive and resulted in liberating millions; the New Deal was an abject failure modeled after socialist countries in Europe. The Great War defended freedom; the New Deal attacked it. During the New Deal FDR was a Pinko; World War II transformed him into the Leader of the Free World.

Simple, isn’t it?

I’ve often wondered how "libertarians" who cheer on Bush’s War on Terrorism would have reacted to the crisis of the Stock Market Crash and Great Depression. It seems to me that if you’re going to trust the state to protect you from terrorists, why not trust it to fix the economy?

I know a few folks who were alive then and remember it. From what they say, and what I’ve read in the history books, the Great Depression was certainly a terrible time for many Americans.

Can you imagine it? The economy going along, growing strong, quite robustly, through the booming 1920s only to quickly and steadily decline, taking with it the fortunes and dreams of millions of Americans. On Black Tuesday alone, October 29, 1929, 16 million shares dropped. That year the economy lost somewhere around $40 billion – and this was back when a billion dollars was actually worth something! If the more than ten million unemployed Americans, constituting 20% of the population, had stood in a line they would have reached from New York to Seattle to Los Angeles and back to New York, with more than 250,000 people left over.

Americans were starving. Businesses were closing. Herbert Hoover attempted to fix the economy with the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and other big government programs. Then Franklin Roosevelt came in and really got the ball of central planning rolling, closing down banks, seizing gold, and establishing the Public Works Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the National Recovery Administration, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, and the Federal Emergency Relief Administration – and that was only the yield of his first 100 days.

The New Deal was in many ways a war economy in peacetime, and in fact was modeled in large part on Woodrow Wilson’s policies during World War I. When Franklin Roosevelt took power, he even said:

"I shall ask the Congress for the one remaining instrument to meet the crisis – broad Executive power to wage a war against the emergency, as great as the power that would be given to me if we were in fact invaded by a foreign foe."

Would pro-war "libertarians" have bought this analogy? Would they have agreed that the crisis America faced was so severe as to warrant the massive expansion of government to fix it? If they were actually living at the time, faced with their fellow countrymen going hungry, would have they made an exception to their anti-government principles for the dire circumstances at hand, and stood by FDR’s "War on Depression"?

No way, most of them would assure us. Even when faced with national depression, principled libertarians would realize that the federal government would be incapable of fixing the problem because of the simple laws of political economy. They might also point out the history of what had happened, arguing that government itself, specifically the Federal Reserve, had caused the Stock Market crash through the devaluing of the dollar that occurred in the late 1920s. The methods of central planning that had caused the Great Depression, they would surely say, would only worsen the problem if expanded in an attempt to fix it.

History has showed this to be the case. In a time when corporations were seen as too big and monopolistic, Roosevelt’s National Recovery Administration forced them to merge. In a time when Americans were going hungry, Roosevelt’s Agricultural Adjustment Administration spent hundreds of millions of dollars to encourage farmers to kill livestock and destroy crops, and it paid a sugar corporation not to produce sugar. His Civilian Conservation Corps paid good money to youth to dig holes and fill them up when they could have actually been producing something. The government jailed tailors who sold suits for less than the legal price.

Needless to say (among libertarians, anyway), government’s attempts to fix the economy dragged it down further. And in spite of conventional wisdom, the standard of living in America didn’t pick up because of World War II, but only afterwards, when politicians stopped trying to run everything.

During the New Deal, the same type of false patriotism existed that we see now. Those who didn’t go along with the government’s projects were often criticized as un-American.

Would "libertarians" have buckled under the pressure, and supported the New Deal – even though it was the government that had caused the problem in the first place, and even though the laws of economics and human nature doomed any chances for government to fix it?

If the answer on everyone’s mind is still no, then how do we explain the still all-too-common phenomenon of "libertarians" who support the current War on Terrorism?

Just as in the case of the Great Depression, it was government that precipitated and allowed the terror of 9/11. U.S. foreign policy incited the terrorists, who came from groups once associated with U.S. allies. The United States backed Saddam Hussein in his emergence in the Baath Party and later in the Iraqi government, and it funded and supported him during his worst crimes against humanity during the 1980s.

Just as in the case of the New Deal, the War on Terrorism has only made matters worse. The U.S. bombs that have fallen on innocents in Afghanistan and in Iraq have only served to garner more support for anti-U.S. terrorist networks such as al Qaeda. The domestic security precautions have made Americans feel like prisoners in airports, but have done nothing to stop anyone who is willing to kill himself and take innocents with him to make a violent statement of revenge. The situation in Iraq resembles liberation as closely as burning crops resembles feeding the hungry.

When government aggression is at the root of a crisis, as was the case with the Black Tuesdays of October 29, 1929 and September 11, 2001, it requires a major suspension of reasoning to think that government aggression can offer an authentic remedy. If government cannot fairly redistribute wealth, it cannot reliably stop maniacs from hijacking planes. If it can’t do well in managing the economy in America, it can’t do any better in managing the economy of Iraq. If it can’t feed the hungry in the Dust Bowl and bring an end to economic depression, it can’t liberate the world and bring an end to international terrorism.

In the year 1933 the best thing FDR could have done would have been to dismantle the regulatory apparatus established by Hoover and other presidential predecessors, and let the market bring prosperity back as quickly as possible. In 2004 the best thing President Bush can do is dismantle the American empire erected over the last few decades and let America’s people and businesses develop their own security against terrorists and other criminals.

Genuine libertarians realize the universal reality behind government failure. The most libertarian Americans of the 1930s were appalled by the New Deal, and later became appalled by Roosevelt’s attempts to drag America into another foreign war. These true patriotic dissidents even opposed many of FDR’s wartime policies, when the pressure to be an uncritical nationalist was far greater than even today.

But would today’s pro-war "libertarians," who use the terrorist crisis as an excuse to defy libertarian principles and support the War on Terrorism, have similarly used the terrible crisis of the Great Depression to defy libertarian principles and support the New Deal?

As our economy is dragged further into another depression by the lunatic fiscal and monetary policies of Washington, D.C., we just might find out.

April 26, 2004

of course that is able to stand.thats what free speach is all about libatarian dipshit

You could at least spell right if you're going to post under his name, you idiot. Another failure for the Indymedia system - it can't stand up to right wing or racist attacks and critical voices are hijacked by assholes until it shuts down all discussion.

Right wing attacks? Is that saying that the right wing attacks the left, or the left attacks the right? Either way, both are stupid. Standing up to an "attack" like that isnt an attack at all. Now a bombardment of reason that either side just simply cant take, perhaps, but not an "attack". There is no "attack" if you are trying to make a point.

Second is posting under the critical voices of a forum... If they are THAT critical, then you would be able to see a pattern of argument as opposed to random jumps from one side to the other. It takes just a little reading between the lines to see if the person is there or not. If it is just a random post like "well I think all u r gay, yuo homos LOL", then just disregard it. Go for the real posts. If it is a hijacked name, it might be annoying, but you can tell who is who.
Bobby reiley

I am honestly surprised that there are still people talking in this forum. Not about Pat Tillman mind you, because of course the topic of the forum in question will always eventually be ignored, or later discarded for a future boring and pointless argument with no end in sight, because one of the parties involved is always lacking the necessary intelligence to realize when they've been beaten, or are just too arrogant and juvenile.

I am honestly surprised that there are still people talking in this forum. Not about Pat Tillman mind you, because of course the topic of the forum in question will always eventually be ignored, or later discarded for a future boring and pointless argument with no end in sight, because one of the parties involved is always lacking the necessary intelligence to realize when they've been beaten, or are just too arrogant and juvenile.

Hey little Bobby; how are you doing with the latest news? You know, the news that Saint Pat was likely killed by "friendly fire"? This raises even more the possibility that his useless death was cynically used by government to spur flagging support for...for...for utter failure.
Failure: USAma is not killed/captured in 18 months.
Failure: A Vichey 'government' of Ba'athists and relgious fanatics in Iraq.
Failure: The atrocities committed by YOUR troops have increased volunteers al-Qaida.
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Bobby, you don't suppose there's a chance Pat was 'fragged', do you? To 'frag' means to purposely kill one of your own for personal or political reasons.
The only reason i ask is that it seems to me hard to mistake a uniformed, helmeted G.I. for an Afghani in a turban and a robe.
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Well, little Bobby; here's hoping this latest news hasn't un-hinged you. Please let us know you're OK and haven't done anything rash.

sincerely-
kb

The lord will bless those who serve for what they believe. Pat Tilliman was great.... You should except Jesus as your savor............................

Dear Samantha:
Your petty desert god couldn't save Pat from getting killed by his own side.
Where was your chicken-shit god on 9/11? Watching sparrows? hahahahaha