Minuteman Project Misconceptions - Confessions of two Indymedia Reporters : AZ IMC

I posted two Audio copies of Phoenix Talk Radio on this issue,so people could have a better understanding,but if people don't listen,and call-in on the Radio Shows,there leads to a mis-understanding of the Border Issue:
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IMC Radio Network

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Original article is at http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/3848.php Print comments.

Audio:MinuteMan Project Invading Arizona April 1
by AZ Radio IMC Tuesday, Mar. 01, 2005 at 5:43 PM
41 minute copy of Charles Goyette Air America Phoenix Radio talking about "Minute Man Project" starting April 1st to man the Borders between Arizona & Mexico.Interview with Chris Simcox publisher of Tombstone Tumbleweed,plus callers.
audio: MP3 at 4.7 mebibytes

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Original article is at http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/21880.php Print comments.

Audio;"Terrorists Invading Arizona"
by AZ Radio IMC Sunday October 03, 2004 at 09:04 PM

53:05 minute audio copy of KFNX-AM Phoenix Bob Mohan's radio show.Military expert saying Terrorists coming thru Arizona and wanting military on border,comments directed against Tom Ridge,Rusty Childess-live,and talk about Prop 200.
audio: MP3 at 6.1 mebibytes

11025/mono/8bt/16kbps

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Not the minuteman issue but the immigration issue. The effects of thoughtless immigration policy affect us all in a negative way.

I probably don't share any political views with the minutemen but then either but don't go claiming to be environmentaly concerned if you grow a tomato patch.

Walnut trees would solve much of the immigration problem in CA.

Your freind AK

Good work Walt and Jessica. You've found the missing link.

For those who live in Tucson and have cable TV, author Charles Bowden will briefly discuss how the War on Drugs affects the lives of people on both sides of the border in an appearance on Indymedia Presents ( on Access Tucson).

In the same episode will be a story about neighborhood video screenings, which is another way to help bring us together. We're weak when we're divided.

If you live elsewhere and have cable but don't get Indymedia Presents, you can talk to your cable subscriber and Pepperspray Productions (PeppersprayProductions.org).

I suspect that many of the people who have been calling and making threats to humanitarian groups were intentionally trying to keep us divided for whichever reasons.

We could all reach out a little more for a better understanding. There's nothing there in the dark that isn't there in the daylight.

I really appreciate the honesty with which Jessica and Walt have come forward. The press, more often than not, approach a divisive event like the MMP with an agenda and without flexibility. It's nice to see that Indymedia has broken ranks, to a certain degree, and has seemingly accepted the MMP as part of the greater discussion. Yes, not every participant of the MMP tried to educate themselves as much as possible and surely brought with themselves prejudice against Mexico. That's not the point. It has been a poignant display of democracy, people assembling, speaking, carrying arms if so chosen. Walt is right, it is doubtful that many MMPs have viewed both The Corporation and Outfoxed (the former better than the latter).

We all know that it is easy to generalize, just ask Jessica what kind of response she received while proudly displaying her Indymedia T-shirt in Cochise County (don't forget your promise).

Yes, independent media is crucial, but all views add something. Let the public discourse continue!

you should send to the az daily star, tucson citizen, and the az republic and see if it gets published. this article is by-far the best thing i have read about the MMP. keep up the good work.

Walt and Jessica raise good points. I see only a couple of dangers in what they suggest.

> Right now, the border is like a huge classroom with pupils all sitting at > their desks, pencils sharpened and waiting for their teacher to show
> up. But the teacher never does.

While we should never underestimate the potential of simple human contact in reaching out to people, I think all activists who have a mind to drive down to the border to talk with the vigilantes should keep in mind the limitations of this approach as well. One conversation rarely changes anyone's life. Every interaction we have with someone is only one of many that they have, and ultimately anything you tell them, someone back home will tell them the opposite. That doesn't mean it's not a good approach; it means it has limitations.

By all means, talk to the vigilantes. Find out where they're coming from. It provides valuable perspective. But then ask yourself what is more productive in the long-term: going to talk once or twice to people from all different parts of the country, or reaching out here and now to that population in our own community? I saw this same troubling approach during the AFTA meetings, this idea that TALKING with people will bring about a revolution in consciousness.

Talking is powerful. But it is also just talk. So when you've talked with the vigilantes and learned more about how "ordinary" people think, please don't just go home and pat yourselves on the back. Organizing is a year-round job, and ultimately anything we build here in our communities will be far more powerful than what we build on a weekend trip, whether to "protest" in DC or to "talk" in Douglas. There are plenty of Minuteman types around here, too. If organizing them is so important, I expect to see people reaching out to them here, all year round, and not just as a weekend fling.

Another troubling implication in this piece is that the rhetoric of "racist vigilante" is somehow a problem. What's wrong with us labeling them as what they are? They ARE vigilantes, and they ARE racists. They blame Latinos for crime, drugs, gangs, dilution of "American" culture, diseases, job loss, speaking Spanish...the list goes on. They DO create a climate in which violent vigilanteism and venemous racism become more acceptable.

Frankly, the LAST thing I want to see is a bunch of white activists down on the border being "understanding" and "open" to the extent that they do not challenge the Minutemen on their implicitly racists assumptions and rhetoric.

Challenging people means just that - challenging them. And tolerating racism ultimately amounts to an endorsement. You don't have to scream at them or beat them up, but every time you let a racist comment go by unchallenged, YOU ARE ENDORSING IT. If I hear one more excuse about "not wanting to alienate them," I may puke.

Walt and Jessica have raised really good points about an activist culture that often encourages confrontation to the extent that it neglects conversation. We do need to step outside our comfort zone and talk to vigilantes, rednecks, suburbanites, and the like.

But just talking can be a comfort zone too. Let's not forget how easy it can be to be "understanding" when it's not YOUR starving family that the vigilantes want to toss out at the barrel of a gun. Let's not forget how easy it can be to extol "talking" so much that action becomes a memory.

i feel private citizens have no right to try and stop the Mexicans from coming across. Go to mexico, See the poverty for your-selves and I don't mean Cancun.
Go to Mexico city, or a small town, any of the poor places.GO To chiapas.LOOK AT ALL THE STARVING PEOPLE.As for alll you racists kiss my ass.

There are a lot of problems with Walt & Jessica's article, and I think there is a potential that Walt & Jessica's article will have the effect of demobilizing the struggle against border repression.

The Minutemen originate in a very reactionary settler movement that has been a lightning rod for all sorts of white nationalists and fascists who fear the decline of white Amerika. It's important to know something about the history of border vigilantism and not draw any artificial distinctions between the media and this movement. Do either Walt or Jessica even know anything about Minuteman organizers' connections with organizations that are anti-immigrant in general, not just anti-illegal immigrant?

Walt & Jessica present no new information. They say some of the Minuteman volunteers have been misinformed by Fox News (have Walt & Jessica not seen Lou Dobbs on CNN?). They call this "news"--Americans believing in chauvinist, jingoist and militarist ideas. What a shock. Walt & Jessica draw this sharp distinction between the media and the Minuteman volunteers, and don't see that many Minuteman volunteers are oppressors, and that this position drives their vigilantism at the border. Border vigilantism has been happening for decades.

The Minutemen's organizers just toned down the violent language for the particular "mission" in April. The Minuteman Project even said so itself in its Standard Operating Procedures, clearly saying future missions may involve engaging migrants. How much clearer can it get? Simcox has said he is ready to die to defend the border if troops or the National Guard aren't put there.

There is no sense of proportion in Jessica's list of purported similarities between the Minutemen and humanitarians. It is true many humanitarians are like fascist-tolerating Liberals Jessica and Walt and don't have fundamental problems with the border and have only tactical disagreements on how to police the border. But the Minuteman organizers have trained its volunteers to give certain answers to the media, for example, about businesses needing to pay migrants higher wages.

The roots of this movement to intensify border repression aren't just in the media. But even if it was in the media, is the solution then just to have dialogue with border vigilantes every year? These vigilantes are replaceable.

Even Jim Gilchrist has said he is a "leftist" in some ways. Fascists have always paid lip service to leftist-sounding ideas and even opposing big business, inept big government, and so on. Walt & Jessica don't seem to have any concept of how nationalists and fascists can appropriate and incorporate certain the language of leftists.

There's nothing new about nessies behavior either.

Not long ago the idiot bastard attempted to use the Google cache as a way of lying. Let's help the talentless backwater hack along by using the Google cache again:

>How can you prove it, nessie, seeing as how you use a hundred names yourself?

(2.) But that has nothing to do with whether I can prove it. I can’t prove it. So what? That, doesn’t mean it’s not true. Personally, I don’t care whether you believe me or not. If you don’t believe me, then you’re not who I’m talking to. I’m talking people smart enough to know that when something that is inconsistent with the bulk of my writing comes signed with my name, it’s a forgery. Anybody who’s not smart enough to grasp that, wouldn’t understand what I was saying, anyway.

(3.) Besides, who it was that wrote something is irrelevant. Only content counts. If it’s true, it doesn’t matter who says it, or why. The truth is the truth, period.

"Later, when you encounter something with my name on it, posted somewhere else on the internet, consider that it may be a forgery. If it is consistent with what you know I have actually written, then I wrote it. If it is not consistent, then it’s a forgery. If you can’t tell the difference, you’re too stupid to understand what I’m saying, anyway, so don’t waste time trying."

The sack of shit has such a Messiah complex that it's a given you're supposed to just know who he is or you're fucked up.

The Google cache lies. See what he *really* wrote:

http://www.transbay.net/~nessie/

http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M65521BBA

{Jessica wrote}
"In the weeks leading up to the Minuteman Project (MMP), all I knew was that "armed vigilantes" would be coming to Arizona to take the law into their own hands and stop the flow of "illegal aliens" across the U.S.-Mexico border. Most of what I knew came from activists or the media.

On April 1, the start of the project, I was terrified".

(notice HER choice of words here. Her "FEAR" was brought on by her bigotry and prejudices and she had let those dominate her reality .)

"What I did not realize until now, is that before laying an eye on a Minuteman volunteer, my view of them was already biased and tainted. "

(Welcome to the REAL world Jessica. Doesn't that make you both a "bigot" and "Prejudiced"???)

"First, the majority of the Minuteman volunteers are not "scary vigilantes." While many of them are armed, it is likely it is because they are NRA enthusiasts, not people who have come to Arizona to shoot people".

(No Jessica, it is because there are REALLY BAD people coming over that border. Ask the family of Kris Eggle or ANY Border Patrolman. )

"Except for one or two individuals, I have not felt threatened or scared by any of the volunteers. (I am a 24 year old female)."

(Jessica, there is seldom any reason to be afraid of white males, especially when they are military, ex-military, law enforcement and ex-law enforcement. In all honesty, you would not have lasted a night down there WITHOUT them. See the just-prior not about BAD PEOPLE coming over the border. Talk to the locals who live along and patrol that border)

"There are many similarities in beliefs between the border activist and humanitarian groups and the Minuteman volunteers when it came to the "border problem." For example, both groups of people would likely agree that: our border policy is messed up, the Bush administration is not trying to fix the problem, the guest worker program needs to be improved, U.S. businesses need to pay higher wages and offer benefits to immigrant labor, that U.S. foreign economic policy is largely to blame, free trade policies hurt both Mexicans and Americans and that the borders are not secure when it comes to drug traffic and possible terrorist threats."

(Thank you. That is an honest statement)

"Some of my conclusions are that many of the volunteers get their news off of corporate broadcast news channels, predominately FOX news. "

(Not so, Jessica. We are mostly getting it largely through the internet. You overestimate FOX news' reach and influence. We are free-thinkers, NOT rush limbaugh/FOX/bush bots. Most of us can't stand "el presidente boosh", at best tolerate Rush Limbaugh and don't care much more for FOX news)

"My opinion is that the MMP is a consequence of the state of the media in three respects. First, it is Americans becoming scared by what they learn from the mainstream media, and finally taking action they believe will solve the problem. "

(Not so. We can see the results in our daily lives, in crime statistics, overloaded classrooms, closing ERs, gang violence. It isn't "fear". It is resentment and the desire to fix what is obviously broken...)

"Secondly, most of the Minuteman volunteers have bad information, thus are reacting to a situation that is based on incomplete facts and details."

(Again, "not so". you need to read our websites and you will see well-researched articles garned from numerous sources; media, think thanks, goverment sources, etc. If anybody has "bad information" I'd have to say that it is the person who looks at you in the mirror each morning and this statment shows that you've missed the point entirely and can't put aside your own prejudices. These are NOT dumb hicks. Most are well-educated professionals)

"Thirdly, due to the lack of international-focused stories and the patriotic focus of the media since 9/11, many feel that the MMP is about defending the United States and our freedoms."

(The first assumption is incorrect. The rest of your comment is accurate)

"I told them about indymedia....they were receptive to this"

(Jessica, that is because WE are the ones with the open minds...)

"Because I think the mainstream media is largely to blame for the misconceptions that have led hundreds of people to join the Minuteman Project..."

(No, Jessica, it is the flood of illegals and the resultant degradation of America's society as the lawbreakers swamp our services and the REFUSAL of governments both large and small to follow the mandates of law which have lead to that)

"I think media activism is the only way to approach the volunteers to tell them that further militarization of the border is not the solution to this global crisis"

(DUH! it is not the solutuion to a GLOBAL situation but it IS a fix for a NATIONAL crisis. Allowing the flood to continue unabated will only add us to the long list of 3rd-world nations. It is up to the goverments of other nations to fix their own problems)

" nor have the leaders of the MMP decided to hold "teach-ins" to further enlighten people within their own movement."

(Jessica, again you're incorrect. It is called a "website" Have you ever seen one? These people didn't blow down there on the wind and rumors. They made a choice based on ALL the pertinent information gleanable through the internet and other sources)

{Walt Wrote:}

"I think the Minuteman Project (MMP) has made me much more critical of ourselves than these so-called vigilantes."

(as well it should. You went down there a know-it-all bigot ready to write horror stories about atrocities committed by "hate-mongering racist, gun-toting, dumb rednecked nazis" and all you found was patriotic U.S. citizen providing a neighborhood watch on a larger scale.)

"I expected to arrive at the border and see a line of pissed-off, racist vigilantes waiting for a group of Mexicans to make a desperate dash through a hole in the fence right into the barrel of a gun."

(You just made my case. Do you realize how prejudiced your are against people who have done NOTHING to you?
PREJUDICED: adjective; being biased or having a belief or attitude formed beforehand)

"Instead, I found myself growing upset with the activists opposing the MMP and their rhetoric that shaped my views of them."

(Thank you. Their behavior and rhetoric were pretty outlandish. )

"Right now, the border is like a huge classroom with pupils all sitting at their desks, pencils sharpened and waiting for their teacher to show up. But the teacher never does."

(Only for those on the left. Those of us on the right KNOW what is going on. We read the statistics and talk to the Border Patrol. We talk to the people who live down there and have to take the abuse. We look at crime statistics, ever-increasing taxes with nothing to show for our money, crowded schools, increases in previously eradicated diseases, the failure to assimilate, and the goals and behaviors of the reconquistas.)

"The project’s organizers, Jim Gilchrist and Chris Simcox, do not seem interested in hosting teach-ins on economics and U.S. history. "

(They are BOTH irrelevant. The "economics" driving this are in OTHER nations. The "history" can be stated thusly: "They stole it; They lost it; We won it AND paid for it. Go home. you don't own it anymore")

"Border groups like Border Action Network, BorderLinks and the others, as far as I know, haven’t planned to hold any movie screenings or discussions on migrant labor for the Minute(wo)men. The only thing I’ve read about are continued protests and opposition to them."

(We are not talking about "migrants". We are talking about criminals. It is patently dishonest to try and blend the two to minimize the criminal aspect of the invaders. It is also patently unfair to those who have waited in line and entered our nation legally by lumping them in with the criminals. The border groups of which you write are aiding and abetting criminal activities. There is no middle ground between our side demanding that the laws be enfoced and ignoring and breaking the laws, as the other side is doing. We are NOT interested in becoming criminals along with them)

"Honestly, the biggest problem the MMP’s volunteers are facing is boredom."

(This is incorrect. The BIGGEST problem was the HATE-filled leftists who were down there trying it instigate problems. These included some media-types who shared your just stated attitudes. The second biggest problem was the asinine behavior of folks like Condoleeza Rice and our very own president, along with a certain Cochise County supervisor, lying about what the MMP was all about and trying to ILLEGALLY suppress the MMP members' first amendment rights to freely and peacably assemble and to redress our grievance against our government through same)

"There’s nary a migrant for miles from where they are situated – the Mexican government and aid agencies have done their best to let people know not to cross west of Douglas until April is over. After spending the better part of seven hours watching the minute(wo)mens’ every movement, it’s obvious they are bored out of their gourd. Some stay put, others slowly drive from outpost to outpost, like an old fashioned game of telephone, passing along news and rumors."

(It worked WELL, didn't it?)

"Basically, they’re all sitting out there wondering why in the hell they’re sitting out there. They, also, have been lied to."

(I refer you to a new term here. PREJUDICED: adjective: being biased or having a belief or attitude formed beforehand.
IF you asked all 800+ plus who attended you will not find ONE who said that they felt "lied to" by the MMP. "Lied about", yes. "Lied to" by the government, yes. "Lied to" by MPP, no. You are writing your own prejudices, not facts. You, like Jessica, still don't get it. These people are well-informed, well-read intelligent Americans. We're NOT hicks and YOU don't have the market cornered on truth. These two op-eds clearly show that )

"We need come up with something to reach these people (and perhaps ourselves?)

A couple days ago, I read on Indymedia.us that a group of human rights activists from California was coming to protest in Douglas. But now, I can’t say I’m looking forward to that, unless they’ve got something really constructive planned. If not, here are some ideas:

Listen to these minute(wo)men. They have interesting stories and experiences."

(We have "been there, done that". We have fought wars, fought fires, fought crimes, saved lives, taken lives, made fortunes and lost fortunes. We've been families and raised families.)

" They are confused and afraid."

(Sorry, I will refer you back to the comment just before the above. We know EXACTLY why were are there and it isn't fear OR ignorance.)

" They don’t know why Bush won’t seal the border"

(Yes, we do. Your prejudices are overriding the facts in this matter. IT is called "GREED" and collusion with his corporate masters and his fellow "bones'er" Vinnie Fox.)

"They don’t want drug dealers in their towns. They don’t want their hospitals going down the tubes. Are these not valid concerns, especially knowing what the media spews at them on a daily basis"

(It is NOT "srew" if it is suppored by hard numbers from CDC, FBI, local police and crime statistics, school statistics, our tax bills, vehicular accident rates, unemploylment rates etc.)

"So go and listen to them, don’t interrupt. Hear what they have to say."

(PLEASE! You might actually learn more than you have but it will do you no good if you don't have an open mind. With all due respect, you and Jessica have a ways to go still before you qualify. Feel fee to come join us again though. Like Tom Beaudette at Motel 6, "we'll leave the light on for ya"....)

"Yes, many of these people are racist, some subtly, some overtly, although it seems to come more from nationalism and fear than hate for a certain skin color. But listen to that too."

(If you think we are, I'd suggest that you listen to MEChA, La Raza, MALDEF, LULAC and the So. Poverty Law Center. Where is your condemnation of them? Go read THEIR websites)

"Then, after offering a sympathetic ear, try a conversation. Many of them would support a legalized guest worker program."

(ONLY if it DOESN"T APPLY to those here illegally.)

"Maybe we could explain how that would grant migrants.."

(AGAIN---- we're NOT talking about "migrants". We are talking about ILLEGAL ALIENS and you're being dishonest by mixing the two.)

"...higher wages, which is something that corporations (aka U.S. government) don’t want."

(WE know that. As long as this flood continues and employers get away with hiring and exploiting illegals, there isn't SQUAT that can be done about the wages and THAT is hurting EVERYBODY, including LEGAL "migrants" as well as U.S. citizens)

"We could talk about NAFTA, now it has tightened the noose on the Mexican government and caused many people to lose their land, driving them to attempt the perilous journey into the States for work. "

(You could, but this would be a simplistic prevarication. Although NAFTA is bad, it is bad for other reasons. VERY FEW people have acutally "lost their land" because very few had land to lose and even fewer had same in the effected areas. This problem existed befroe NAFTA and if NAFTA ended tomorrow, it would STILL exist. )

"Although it may seem like migrants are a drain on many of our systems, they are hard working and many have taxes and Social Security taken out of their wages."

(California alone lose $8.5 BILLION a year supporting illegals. FEW have taxes taken out. The day laborers and the 500,000+ in prisions are human sinkholes, as are the single mothers having baby after baby at taxpayer expense)

"And, many return home to Mexico or Central America. But since the border has been more heavily militarized, it’s harder to return, so more and more are staying and keeping their families here. This list can go on and on..."

(Your arguments is fallacious. If they woere here LEGALLY the "militarization" of the border would be irrelevant. IF theur familes are here, statistics say that they are NOT leaving. the list would be equally dishonest The rest of the "list" would be as disingenuous as what you just wrote. The "militarization" of the border is NOT the problem. That is like blaming the walls around prisions for the criminals inside)

"What we really need to do is set up an infoshop on the border and let the MMP volunteers check out books, fliers and zines for the day"

(OH PLEASE! We're still stuck on the idead that the MMPs particiapants are dumb hicks and you alone are the holder of the truths....that is LAUGHABLE!)

"Maybe some of them would then go home and start harassing their congressmen and senators for immigrant rights."

(we are already doing that. Again, your ignorance is showing. and AGAIN---this is not about "immigrants". It is about ILLEGAL ALIENS)

"If we don’t do this kind of work, then I don’t know what activism is, or at the very least, I don’t want to be a part of it anymore. They call us lazy, jobless communists. We call them consumer-driven, racist right-wingers.

I say we all have a lot to learn from each other."

(Bingo! It is amazing what you can learn when you climb down from your ivory towers and step outside your own enclaves and prejudices, isn't it?)

"Now, I don’t defend the MMP to the slightest, but I think we’ve got a great opportunity to reach out to a group of people we rarely have the opportunity to talk to".

(Correct choice of words; "talk to". Not "lecture to", "denigrate", "call names" and all the other tactics normally used by the left. Dialog is an amazing thing. you still have a long way to go though)

I've met my share of fascists, and they're often pretty nice people. I've also met a good number of people raised under various fascist governments, and they're also nice, even though they're generally more nationalistic than I am... so we do not discuss politics much.

That doesn't mean I will support fascists organizing. Call this stuff what it is -- incipient nationalist political organizing, with some pro-worker rhetoric to attract the working class.

Let's restate the values of the "left" in this situation:
- human rights -- meaning all humans.
- eliminating poverty -- meaning globally as well as locally
- decreasing war -- demilitarizing life
- supporting democracy - meaning power to the people

The MMP and their platform are against all four:
- they wish to restrict rights to illegals
- their actions will increase poverty locally, immediately, and globally in the long term
- they take guns to the border
- see point 1

The fact that we may agree that NAFTA is bad is just one point. We think NAFTA is bad because, basically, it's undemocratic and represents the interests of the elite. Leftists, and most people, are generally FOR free trade -- we like the global culture, and intermingling of culture through commerce. What we don't like is exploitation.

The right's disagreement with NAFTA is that it leads to globalism, global government, and an erasure of borders. They view the nation as constantly under threat of siege. They are isolationists, and, some are even racists and imperialists (though I suspect most are not).

They only want to restrict one right to illegals. The right to just wander on in anytime they want with no accountability.

Illegals have no "right" to be here in the U.S. without the proper paperwork and documentation.

If we took the troops from Iraq and placed them on the border we wouldn't have to "worry" about the dangers illegals face in sneaking into the U.S.

I would simply like to know on what basis you refer to the Minutemen as "fascists".

My tentative hypothesis is that your point is:

"Some are saying that the Minutemen behave like human beings. However, our cause is best served by denying that they are human beings and instead defining them using a highly derogatory slur, since this is the best way to keep up our activist fervor and the best way to assure that none among us harbor any doubts about our agenda or any nuanced views tempered by actual empirical reality about the world around us."

Yes, your critisism of especially Jessica's part of the article is absolutely correct. She needs to stop writing about subject matter that she does not understand!

She takes no consideration about how the whole minuteman/vigilante existance affects people of color. I think she needs to step back and awknowledge that she has a white priviliage complex that should be addressed.