Raging Grannies Arrested At Recruiting Center : AZ IMC

Several Raging Grannies, along with an Indymedia journalist (myself), were arrested for trespassing Wednesday after they entered an Army recruiting office and attempted to enlist.

The Grannies were hoping the recruiters would have shown more humor with the activists. Instead, Sgt. Richardson called Tucson police and had everyone cited.

The mood before the action was light and joyous. Protestors have been showing up in front of the military recruiting offices on Speedway each Wednesday morning since the pledge of resistance began over 3 years ago.

Nearly 20 people lined the sidewalk this morning with signs and American flags with peace symbols. Most motorists honked and waived at the rally, which delights Granny Pat Birnie.

“They can hear the honks inside,” she said, hinting towards the recruiters’ offices.

At 9:00 am, the Grannies split off from the rally and made a plan of action. They warmed up their voices with “God Help America,” then headed for the Army’s office.

The Grannies stood in front of the office and sang more songs, prompting Army Sgt. Richardson to close the door to his office. After a few minutes, they began to enter the Army’s office, stating that they wished to enlist. The recruiters tried to turn them away, saying that protestors are not allowed on their property, but the willful Grannies made their way in.

After spending a few minutes reading a prepared statement (see below) and singing a few more songs, the Sergeant told them that they must leave, and that charges were going to be pressed. Both recruiters seemed uncomfortable and were unwilling to confront the elderly choir, keeping their backs turned and pretending to do office work. While on the phone, Sgt. Richardson said he had a "room full of elderly ladies."

“They were afraid of us,” said Elizabeth Richards shortly after leaving the office. “They had to be looking at papers or on the phone.” Richards has been a Raging Granny for 2 years.

After everyone had left the building and filed back to the sidewalk, TPD officer S. Morken arrived and asked Sgt. Richardson to point out everyone who was in his office, including myself (two other journalists were not cited.)

According to Lt. Col. Hickins, a Battalion Commander from Phoenix, the charges were pressed by the landlord of the building, not the Army itself. He declined to give any other information about the incident.

No one was expecting to be arrested for the action. “This is the only contingency we hadn’t planned on,” Birnie said afterwards.

Birnie said that the Raging Grannies have already contacted Mayor Walkup’s office about the incident, but he was out of town for the day.

“My sense is that it’s such an absurd charge that the judg-e will excuse it,” she said.

The Tucson Raging Grannies is a project of the Tucson Branch of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom. The Grannies sing their messages by creating new words to familiar tunes, to convey their angst against federal policies that undermine our national security, environmental sustainability, and first amendment rights (and to add humor to our protests). They have performed at peace rallies and other local events since forming three years ago. The Raging Grannies was first initiated by Canadian activists 19 years ago. The idea has spread throughout the world, and can be traced on the internet. The Tucson WILPF Grannies is included in the local branch web site: www.wilpftucson.org Contact Margaret Pecoraro 885-3908 or Pat Birnie 908-9269

For over 3 years, protestors have been coming to the sidewalk in front of the military recruiting offices on the 2300 block of East Speedway. Each branch - Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines - has an office here.

WHY RAGING GRANNIES want to ENLIST in MILITARY FORCES

9:00 am Wednesday, July 13, 2005 U.S. Army Recruiting Station, 2303 E. Speedway, Tucson, AZ

The Raging Grannies want to enlist in the U.S military forces to make possible the immediate return of all U.S. service personnel, and to set an example of what REAL diplomacy can achieve. We would meet with our counterparts in Iraq (women) and come to a mutual agreement of how best for Iraq to regain its own independence, as all U.S. troops, bases and corporations leave their country.

The Raging Grannies are angry about the U.S. maintaining a Permanent War Economy, using military might as the U.S.’s primary tool of Foreign Policy.

The Raging Grannies are angry about the U.S. military recruitment system that lies to young people about the reasons for needing more people in the military. We are angry that our young peoples’ lives are at risk for reasons that have nothing to do with defending our country.

The Raging Grannies are angry that the U.S. is using and has used quantities of Depleted Uranium weapons in Iraq, and other places in the Middle East, jeopardizing the health and environment for 4.5 billion years (providing a source for birth defects, leukemia and other adverse health effects for our own service personnel as well as innocent citizens).

The Raging Grannies are angry that the U.S. is building 14 permanent bases in Iraq. We are angry that U.S. policies are driven by fear-mongering and growing losses of First Amendment Rights. We abhor the use of torture by U.S. forces against detainees.

We insist that Recruiters tell the truth to our grandchildren who come to serve their country.

The Raging Grannies want all U.S. corporations and military personnel (official military troops and mercenaries) withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as possible, and that the U.S. finance the re-building of what we have destroyed, with local people doing their own re-construction work. The military bases that have been built should be turned over to the Iraq and Afghanistan people to use as they can, for whatever purposes they may have. The U.S. should spend recruitment dollars to (instead) improve education for all students, and gain a boost in our economy for this investment.

Army Sgt. Richardson singles out the grannies to TPD officer S. Morken. Richardson also pointed me out, even though I was wearing a visible press pass. Two other journalists were not arrested, however.

At least 8 TPD officers eventually showed up to help write the trespassing citations. Everyone was cited and realeased by 9:45 am.

Great coverage of somthing the mainstream media will probably not cover or will slant to shed a beneficent aura around what has become routine for recruiters: using local police as a goon squad -- an absurd waste of taxpayer money.

BuildPeaceon Blogspace.com also covered this event.

If only the women of the world could work together to stop the march of Corporatism.

Peace
anthrophile

In the immortal words of Berry and Torrence:
"Go Granny,
Go Granny,
Go Granny- Go!"

"but the willful Grannies made their way in". Morons that's the legal definition of Criminal Trespassing ...

No, John -- it's not the definition of anything, really. You're just quoting from someone's account. I don't think what the Grannie's did even qualifies as "simple trespass."

Where are you pulling your defintion of "criminal trespass" from, John? From somewhere below the waist, I'd guess (sorry AZ IMC!)

elaine
by elaine higginbotham-schramm Wednesday, Jul. 13, 2005 at 10:10 PM
theebyss@aol.com 520-409-9900 5732 e mable st, tucson az 85712

grannies and my thanks to walt:

way to go grannies of us all. i could not be there for your herstorical action, but the coverage i saw locally said it all. the reasons for this war are lies. the profits made from this war are by our current administrations friends and allies.
what a crock.
with many blessings,
elaine higginbotham-schramm
"friends dont let friends shop at wal-mart"

thank you so much indymedia, walt, and others who participated in, witnessed &/or recorded this event which i'm proud to have been part of as a raging granny.

i'm a little deef at my age, and i didn't hear anyone ask us to leave the office.

but since it's a space which is there for the public to go into, not to mention paid for by our taxes, i believe we had a perfect right to go in and try to enlist, and tell those young whippersnappers who had us arrested, why we were there to do that.
we did it for all of their, and everyone's, grandkids.
''criminal trespass'' my foot! we left peaceably well before police arrived.

they ought to be ashamed of themselves.
we were performing a patriot act.

Definition from the Arizona Criminal and Traffic Law Manual - take a law class will ya?

Today I humbly honored you with a blog entry on my site "Enviro Hanky": jeneiene.blogspot.com

Rock on, sisters!

Maybe you should take *two* law classes. Me -- I just google the AZ Revised Statutes. Just because the Grannies & selected others are cited by police for "unlawfully" entering the place, doesn't make it so. We'll see what the lawyers & City of Tucson decide...

And just from a tactical point of view, probably the stupidest thing the recruiting office could have done was have a bunch of regular-citizen-looking "grannies" arrested, huh? BAD pr for those big, tough recruiters. Still a bunch of mommy's boys, I say.

Kudos to the Grannies!

the guy at the desk is on the phone in the big picture is "turning in" The Grannies. how heroic is that? geesh. what a wussie.

Wish I could have been there. I am 100% on your side about your issues and beliefs. Go get them ladies. DMR

Can the grannies in Tucson send us some of the songs so we can do it in Pittsburgh?
Good work!

Raging Grannies brings forth the vision of a food fight in the nurseing home. It also is proof positive that wisdom does not always come with age. Once a moron, always a moron.

Some peoples lives are defined by what they can protest. It is a full time occupation for some....

Nothing new.......

As a "Raging Grannie" I feel honored to be among those who are taking action to put the warmongers to shame!

"Great coverage of somthing the mainstream media will probably not cover or will slant to shed a beneficent aura around what has become routine for recruiters: using local police as a goon squad -- an absurd waste of taxpayer money."

'Using local police as a goon squad'?

Let's see, you enter a privately-owned building with the intent of disrupting normal business and the workings of its occupants, not to mention desiring to intimidate them, and call the police a 'goon squad' when they are called to rectify the situation?

If I gathered up a bunch of my friends, loudly paraded into your home or place of work, and began shouting a previously written speech, while you were on the phone with potential clients, business contacts, or friends, or attempting to do other work...You're saying you *wouldn't* call the police and ask them to remove me, when I refused to leave voluntarily?

And then you do all this under the guise of 'wanting to enlist'...Just so you can tell people, "Jeeze, we were just trying to sign up!!" when you, inevitably, and according to plan, get into trouble (Even if the trouble you got into was worse than you had expected).

I'm sorry, but that is just patently absurd.

"the reasons for this war are lies"

That may be so, but this is wholly the wrong place to be protesting the war.

If you don't agree with the United States' foreign policy decisions, protest the people who make those decisions, not the innumerable cogs in the machine that carries it out.

"protest the people who make those decisions, not the innumerable cogs in the machine that carries it out"

People who allow themselves to be cogs in a machine, mindlessly carrying out the decrees of the state, are fundamentally the problem. Would Nazi Germany have been Nazi Germany if the Germans refused to act as mindless cogs in the state's death machine?

"People who allow themselves to be cogs in a machine, mindlessly carrying out the decrees of the state, are fundamentally the problem."

Maybe so, but you are simply not going to solve the problem with the resources you have or ever will have available to you by focusing on the cogs. To further my 'machine' analogy...Focus on the boilers.

" Would Nazi Germany have been Nazi Germany if the Germans refused to act as mindless cogs in the state's death machine?"

Perhaps not, but one could not realistically expect to stop it by engaging in small-scale propaganda operations directed at a small group of cogs in a relatively insignificant area of that machine's operation.

Your point of 'it would not be what it is without people carrying out its orders' is true, but do you really, truly expect, or even entertain the slightest possibilities of, influencing enough people with your poorly targeted protests and disruptions to make a noticable difference, if any at all, other than making yourselves feel good?

"Raging Grannies brings forth the vision of a food fight in the nurseing home"

Sounds like an ageist remark to me...have something against older people? Keep those stupid comments to yourself please. This is a place for well-informed (or at least willing to learn) people to engage in genuine discourse.

Traditionally wymen have been able to rule quietly and from behind the scenes. Army Recuruiters are scum and lie to all of the recruits that they enlist. That is what they do and who they are. Besides this is Little Boy George's War and he should be over there fighting, oh yeah, all the old Evil White Men who make up the Four Horsemen in the WhiteHouse, should have been removed from office September 10th, 2001. We obviously do not have any of the military might that they claim that we do. So since they will not protect us, they should all be fired and sent to Leavenworth.

Hummmm..... I didn't think a police officer could write a citation on hearsay evidence. I would ask the judge that these citations be dismissed for lack of credible evidence. Surely military recruiters cannot be considered to be credible, considering this entire current recruiting drive is based on the need to recruit fodder for a war that is based on lies!

I would like to know how to contact these ladies and see if there is a plan to start chapters around the country. I would like to start one in Mesa AZ. I have a friend that would start one in Phx if there isn't one already.
I love it this is great, Go Grannies Go
Expect to this this in Mesa SOON

I'll bet there aren't anyu Jewish grannies, but then again, there aren't any Jews serving in iraq.

For your information former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney of Canada lead his government into rule in 1984 when nearly all of the population believed politicians represented the publics best interests. By 1993 he lead his party into the biggest defeat ever handed to a sitting government in Canada, discrediting his profession so badly that the level of trust held by the public for politicians fell to less than 2%. In spite of documented statements shown to be lies and policies shown to be against the best interests of the public, his government stood brazenly ignoring us until a little old lady walked up to him one day in front of tv cameras, shook her finger up to his nose and said, "You LIED to us Mr. Mulroney! You LIED to us!"
That granny was seen on tv across the nation and signaled the start of a swift and massive groundswell of opposition that removed him and nearly all of his cohort from our parliament forever. YOU should be so lucky USA! Go Grannies Go!

If the Raging Grannies decide to go to trial, Demand a jury trial and put the war criminals on trial. Put the terrorist policy of the murdering rich on trial. Put the Government on trial and demonstrate that the Government no longer exists as a legal entity.

The reason the government is finished, is due to the creation of nuclear weapons. Our criminal elite have planned to use them on all of us from the beginning, the decision was made to exterminate the mass of humanity in April of 1947.

This explains the Extraterrestrial intervention into our world. How am I so sure that "ET" exists: if he did not exist we all we be nuclear waste already.

Some folks think that it cannot be true and that is because they don't have any imagination. Just imagine if you can what it would be like to be in a full blown nuclear war, and then you will understand our murdering rich and their heinous plans for you and your family, and all the rest of us.

Reading about this incident just re-enforces how afraid we Americans should be..........we are becoming a police state!

Go Grannies Go! Love it. Fire the Liars!!!!

Really enjoyed this. Recruiters overreacting to elderly women - no wonder American personnel keep butchering innocent civilians - recruiters are most successful snaring head cases like themselves

Yeah, that's what they said at Nuremberg to.

Those who carry out policy are just as guilty as those who create policy.

N-E-V-E-R forget that.

"Wrong place, wrong people"

Yeah, that's what they said at Nuremberg to.

Those who carry out policy are just as guilty as those who create policy.

N-E-V-E-R forget that.

HOORAY for the Raging Grannies! Keep on keeping on. We send you love and hugs from Caracas Venezuela!

Good for those grannies!!!! They know the truth, demonstrated it peacefully and educated thousands who read the story.
When grandmas go to jail, instead of the criminals in DC, you know our country is in deep trouble.
Now with all the false flag operations in London, they will sweep away what little of our freedoms is left with the renewal of the Un-American patriot act.
Meanwhile, Homeland In-Security has no money to protect our borders, trains or people. Only themselves from the people.

No wonder the military is having so much troule recruting soldiers. With sissies like army sargeant richardson running the recruiting office, its easy to understand why america is making the choices they are making when it comes to butchering innocent iraquis. Keep up the good work grannies, the whole world is watching our pathetic military show their asses. I am still waiting for george bush's war crimes trial to start. Mr. bush is a psychopathic serial killer who needs to tried for war crimes right along side his good buddies saddam hussein, and tony blair. Let's try em, convict em and turn them over to the iraqui people for sentencing.

Majic........You say that these grannies should not be protesting the recruiting centers. Thats like saying you shouldn't be freeing the slaves from the prisons. You have to protest in every place that is causing young men and women to be manipulated into becoming young murderers. The recruiting centers is a great place to begin. The white house, the senate and the congress is a great second stop, and if you support this war then your house should be on the list as well. Do us all a big favor. Sit back and shut up. WAY TO GO GRANNIES. KEEP AFTER THESE MURDEROUS BASTARDS.

Way to go Tuscon Grannies. I am so impressed with the bravery of you to do anti recruiting. When the first Gulf War started in 1991, some of us went to the Canadian Recruiting Centre. They were very polite to us, but I was told to join I would have to go to boot camp before I was 50. At that time I was 64. Another time we got arrested for going on a military base but they never pressed the charges. We took our irons and ironing boards to the court house and "pressed our charges" That got the front page of the paper, but they never did press the charges. They really dont like to arrest elderly women. Keep doing what you are doing!!!!

Raging Grannies
by A Dependent Wife and Former Active Duty Membe Friday, Jul. 22, 2005 at 11:57 AM

I have read the article on the arrest of the "raging grannies". I do understand your point on Peace, but really, did you honestly think you would get anywhere doing what you did, other than get arrested?
You say you wanted to enlist to bring your Children and Grandchildren home, but those same Children and Grandchildren signed up themselves for their country and they are doing exactly what they signed up for.

Gp Grannies !! Wish I had your gumption.

I wanted to add a comment about the incident at the recruiting station. The motive is definitely right, however I would have to say not handled at all in a way as to take the group seriously. They spend every week for three years at a recruiting station? Why? Recruiters aren't sending the troops over, they have no control, no power, and are merely servants to a higher power. Wouldn;t that energy have been better exerted at capitol hill? Or pressing the legislators for change? This doesn;t make any sense and really looks like bad planning, and no idea what it takes to really change something by doing the honorable thing. and following the rules that apply to all protests. But, the first rule is to protest to the people who can actually help the cause.
Think a little......

Ray,

First of all, for the sake of your arguement, may I suggest that you run your comments through a spell check before posting them? It truly does not behoove your cause.
Secondly, I am a recruiter in the Army and would be more than happy to run an age waiver for any of these women. I just need your name, address, telephone number, social security number, and date of birth. I can fill in the blanks from there.
I first read about this on http://www.foxnews.com and one of the comments from the "Grannies" was that they were seriously, "trying to enlist." Not from the looks of your organization. Liars. Pathetic liars. If your cause was noble and just you wouldn't have to lie through your rotting teeth.
Lastly, I take very seriously my commitment to my Army value of Integrity and do not lie to prospects. Furthermore, I invite "anti-recruiters" to come to my High Schools with me. When potential recruits can compare simultaneously what I have to say with the message of your ilk, my numbers skyrocket-one of the reasons why I am the top recruiter in my Company for the past three months.
So please, keep doing what you're doing. Just don't think for a second you are accomplishing a single thing other than alienating the populace to my side.
On that note, I thank you all again, and bid you adieu

Ladies:

Glad you want to go help bring our troops home. While at it, why don't you welcome the insurgents to come along with them. Ask any Marine or any Marine mom/parent why our boys and girls are over there and you might just be a bit embarrassed by what you hear.

Make sure you know what you're doing before launching yourselves into laughing stalks in front of every military branch that serves you; not to mention the millions of middle east people who love you for your ignorance.

I wish you well. You need that.

Proud Marine Mom

As a side note:

Any time you want to debate me personally on the issues-feel free to reach me at my e-mail address. I'll post some of the more "colorful" comments here for all to read.
Just some words of caution:
I WILLl tear you apart rhetorically, yet I shall be gracious enough to allow what little is left of you to limp back to the rock you crawled out from.
If you are not well versed in FACT, nor capable of structuring coherent sentences, save both your time and mine.
I do not suffer fools well; nor do they, me.

Also, this is a call-to-arms for all you wanna-be "anti-recruiters" out there! School starts in six weeks! If you are in the Southern Massachusetts/Rhode Island area, holla back, yo!
Our recruiting year ends on 20050911! I am on pace to put in upwards of 13 people in the Future Soldier program between now and then (miminum mission is approx 2/month). If I can DOUBLE that I will be in line for Recruiter of the YEAR. Please help! Your mindless rants and lack of any tangible personal hygiene are necessary for the cause!
Again, I may be reached at the above e-mail address.
I look forward to making you question every value you thought you ever held dear.

How many of the people who responded to this with cries of "This war is immoral!!" have had Iraqis come up to them, crying & thanking them for getting rid of Saddam? I have.

How many people have seen the devastation & broken families brought about by Saddam Hussein's administration? I have.

I you'd seen what I've seen & talked to the people I've spoken with, you'd think twice about calling this an immoral war.

Oh well, I guess people need something to protest. Too bad most of them can't do it intelligently.

How many of the people who responded to this with cries of "This invasion is immoral!!" have had Americans come up to them, crying & thanking them for trying to get rid of Bush2? I have.

How many people have seen the devastation & broken families brought about by George Bush2's administration? I have.

If you'd seen what I've seen & talked to the people I've spoken with, you'd think twice about calling this invasion or Iraq "justified."

Oh well, I guess people need something to complain against. Too bad most of them can't do it intelligently.

Thanks for proving my point Desertphile.

Stephen Bozich:
Please put in for a transfer to Iraq; the Noble Cause needs you there and your Nation will be forever grateful!
sincerely,
kb

p.s.
It's 'argument', not "arguement".
kb

Bonnie:
You obviously have been doing a great job in Iraq!
Won't you please go back and continue your fine work?
Thank you.

Sincerely,
kb

...you'd be doing something about it, not sitting around posting the party line on the internet.

Yes, yes; go back and continue your liberation of Iraq!
Just don't slip on all the flowers the grateful Iraqi people throw in your path.

Sincerely,
kb

These lunatic protestors need to realize that the world is Not a pretty place, those who 'turn the other cheek' get shot dead. No, I am not a "war monger" but face it Evil only knows one language and it is Not the language of song.
Let the terrorists and evil do-ers run amok and their next bomb may just be in Your Face!!
War is Never an answer to anything, it is a regretable-nessesity of the human race.
Also face it, and your going to hate me for this one: most war is faught over Religion and Religious beliefs....sad, but true.

JB, Desertphile, & Others,
So many protesters don't appear to care about people. I posted that thing about grateful Iraqis to get people to think, but Desertphile turned it around to support the anti-Bush cause. You don't seem to care that people's entire families were wiped out. You apparently can't see past yourselves. If you did, you'd think about your actions & would try to do something constructive.

Why aren't you protesting the people who blew up all those Iraqi children last week? Or the ones who are blowing up the people applying for the Iraqi police force - people who just want jobs? Were you protesting Saddam Hussein when he was gassing the Kurds? That was immoral & illegal, wasn't it? The Kurds I met in the streets of Sulimaniya were some of the people who were happiest to see us.

Hey Kb (if that is your real name)

Shoot me an e-mail, whydontcha?!

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with Religion, Oil, familial revenge, or, for that matter, Weapons of Mass Destruction.
It has everything to do with the removal of a dictator who sponsored terrorism throughout the region and refused to comply with the obligations imposed upon him by the International community. Those obligations, you won't remember (because you have the short term memory of a goldfish), were imposed after Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Groups such as A.N.S.W.E.R. take such severe umbrage to the removal of Saddam because he was doing something they approve of: sponsoring the killing of Jews.
At the same time they bristle at the idea of America doing anything to stem the rising tide of terrorism across the globe. To this they will undoubtly insist that it is American foreign policy that is the cataylst for terrorist acts. That we are a "hyperpower" that entertains itself with the subjugation of brown people. What is telling is that when America does not project its power we are deemed a "hyperpower" that callously stands idle while brown people subjugate other brown people (Darfur).
Their hatred for America has roots in their hatred for their own personal failures. America is a free-market society-be it the economy of goods or the economy of ideas. Their ideas are hollow (as are often their heads) and cannot find enough buyers in the marketplace to produce any capital, especially when it comes to political capital.
Therein lies the reason why they must constantly turn to the courts to press their case. Furthermore, when a qualified nominee is proffered for the Supreme Court, they throw a fit if they are not "mainstream" enough (i.e. liberal).
Unfortunately, people such as this are the result of living in a free society. That we tolerate their existance speaks volumes about the strength of America. Fortunately, while they do have an annoying tendency to scream really loud, they do so only because there are so mercifully few of them.
History is on our side. When the final chapter is written these people will be nothing more than a footnote. An abnormality. Just as the Soviet Union will be nothing more than an asterisk in the timeline of America's dominance over tyranny.
Remember, these are the people who require tyranny to rule. Sans despotism, they cannot say, "This is the way it is!", but rather, "Would you like fries with that?"
Their vitrol comes from the fact that they know they are beaten. Their days are spent drowning in jealousy. For that I thank them again, for as I have always maintained, envy is the greatest form of flattery.

KB,

Why won't you address my statements? Do you not believe me or can't you think deeply enough?

Why aren't you in Iraq doing something to help those people get their government going, if you hate the US being there so much? Put up or shut up.

duty...honor...country

Hey Sal!

All I ask is you remember my name.

As for pictures, here's one of a bunch of crusaders...

HAHA! Whadda think, Sal? (by the way, that's NOT a rhetorical question!)

Now we've got the Iraqi's working for us-killing THEM!

Goddamit are we EVIL! I LOVE it!

Nice pics. The jail thing is stupid - no one's said the Army's perfect.

You still haven't addressed anything I've brought up. Put up or shut up. What are you doing to help the Iraqis you care about so much?

this is what democracy looks like

Here's another one for y'all.

Hrm, Iraqi's and Americans working to kill terrorist.

There must be a civil right being violated here. Call the ACLU. Call Howard Dean. Call Jessie!!

This is a waste of time. KB, you can't seem to engage in a constructive conversation & you're making your cause look worse.

Have a nice night.

That might be one of the many faces of "democracy" but terrorism only has one face-and now it's GONE!!

But seriously, folks-here lies the cure to Islamic fascism: AN OPEN MIND!!!

Thank you, for posting the fotos of the colaborators with the forces of the occupiers.
The brave Iraqi Freedom Fighters who battle the Coalition and their puppet regime will appreciate them too.

When are you leaving for Iraq?

Sincerely,
kb

i thought you'd be on your way to Iraq by now.

When are you going to post an e-mail address?

My PMOS is 74D (Chemical Operations Specialist)-although I'm on recruiting duty now. Once I have completed my assignment of swelling the ranks so as to crush the enemy I'll be on my merry way. I was supposed to go with my last unit, but Turkey turned us away at port.
Not that it matters. We'll be in Iraq and the Middle East at large, I'm sure, for many many years. I'll probably get my pick of patches.
Like I said, Sal-remember my name. I'm gonna make John Kerry look like Walter Mondale.

Semper fi dude....

Or how's it go? Hooah??

corporal coward
by sala... Saturday, Jul. 23, 2005 at 8:59 AM
everywhere allatonce

ok hero
i'll remember your name as well as your face
though in all probability you won't live long enough to make any meaningful contribution to this world

what is it about the grannies that got you so upset?
or are you just following orders

bonnie, you've done absolutely nothing to be proud of
justice will pursue you till the day you die pissing/shitting your red white and blue panties just like your fellow heroes are doing EVERYDAY in iraq and afghanistan

fucking cowards and laughingstocks
you know the truth
you are all fucked

"In the images of celebrating Iraqis, we have also seen the ageless appeal of human freedom. ....lies and intimidation could not make the Iraqi people love their oppressors or desire their own enslavement. Men and women in every culture need liberty like they need food, and water, and air. Everywhere that freedom arrives, humanity rejoices. And everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear."

So, Kb, do you ever do more to support your argument than post images designed to evoke strong emotions, rather than well thought-out and logical responses?

Please go to: http:www.ChristeneLeDoux.com/listen_buy.html then SCROLL down a bit for a free download of my song, "Dear Mr. President." This was recorded live in Cambridge, England last year. - PASS THE SONG TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE! BUSH IS A WANKER!!! peace, - Christene LeDoux

I still love the lack of personal accountablility of anyone that joins the armed forces. It seems as everyone in the history of this country joined under false pretenses and was unaware that there is a war going on. If you are that clueless that you are unaware there is a war going on and you could be sent to the shit, you deserve what you get...

coward bozich
where are you?

is that you on the bridge?

Congratulations you wonderful women! The elderly or middle aged have plenty to say about life and how it should be in the future for our children and grand children. Yes 'God Bless America' as long as it has people of all ages speak their truth
loudly and clearly. There is no better way than in a song.

Cool! Go, Grannies!!! Make yourselves heard, acknowledged, and recognized. You've got courage. Keep up the great work!

Seriously...What, exactly, are they doing, and how is it having any sort of relevent impact on either A) Demilitarization of America, or of the world, B) The war in Iraq, C) the Bush administration's foreign policy, or D) convincing people not to join the military?

I can tell you right now they are doing exactly nothing to help A, B, or C...And we have an Army recruiter encouraging them to do this more often, as it causes him to actually get *more* recruits.

So what, exactly, are these arrogant, foolish old hags accomplishing?

> How many of the people who responded to this
> with cries of "This war is immoral!!" have had Iraqis
> come up to them, crying & thanking them for
> getting rid of Saddam? I have.

Yeah, invading innocent countries, slaughtering innocent people to the tune of over 100,000 murdered so far, rape, torture, war crime atrocities against humanity... All acceptable because Saddam has been replaced with an even worse mass murdering baby killer.

Anyone who supports Bush and his war against the people of Iraq needs to sign up and ship out. They have no excuse for not being in Iraq "liberating" Iraqis and "bringing Democracy to the Iraqi people." Ifv they open their yaps and demand Bush's war is some how excusible, they should be in Iraq.

And no, protests about being too old or having already gone and come back are not valid. If they support the wonton, indiscriminate killing of Iraqi children and babies in their beds, they have no excuse for not shipping out to Iraq and doing the killing themselves.

Anyone who opposes Bush and his war against the people of Iraq needs to ship out and join the insurgancy. They have no excuse for not being in Iraq "fighting for freedom from their oppressors" and "bringing freedom from America" If they open their yaps and demand Bush's war is some how inexcusible, they should be in Iraq.

...

Yeah, that sounds really goddamned stupid, doesn't it? So does the flip side of the coin. To say that one cannot have any sort of opinion on something without actively *participating* in that something is absurd, and one of the most foolish things you can say.

That said, I don't understand the need to *lie* to oppose this war, any more than I understand the need to *lie* to support it - if your position is valid, the FACTS should speak for themselves.

THat means, oh darn! We can't go around saying that the Army is deliberately slaughtering innocents and murdering babies in their cribs...And it also means that, oh darn! We can't say we're in Iraq because they had WMD.

one does not need to "ship out" to iraq in order to join the resistance
we are everywhere and that's what frightens you

support the troops
ship clean underwear to iraq
the cowards are soiling their's faster than we can ship them

"Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy." - Henry Kissinger, quoted in "Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW's in Vietnam"

Go, go Grannies!
by A supporter in W.Va. Wednesday, Jul. 27, 2005 at 6:45 AM

I remember the awful day when Bush sent troops to Afghanistan in retaliation for 9/11. It saddened me to think that at this late date in history we couldn't - with all our resources, creativity and hard-earned "world dominance" - come up with a better solution than yet another war. Your message is the right one. Keep on singing!

> Anyone who opposes Bush and his war against the
> people of Iraq needs to ship out and join the
> insurgancy.

Anyone who thinks the Iraqi freedom fighters are some how "insurgents" is admitting he supoports and defends a mass murdering fascist regime and thinks defending one's country and one's family is wrong.

The notion that the people of Iraq who are defending themselves against this brutal baby killing regime are some how "insurgents" is an admission that if their own country were invaded, their government killed and a puppet regime installed, and their children murdered in their beds from the brave use of cluster munitions from the brave altitude of 30,000 feet, they would step aside and not do anything about it.

After all, defending their country is "insurgency."

Or is only white-skinned people who worship the "right" gods who are allowed to defend themselves against mass murdering terrorist fascist regimes?

"Anyone who thinks the Iraqi freedom fighters are some how "insurgents" is admitting he supoports and defends a mass murdering fascist regime and thinks defending one's country and one's family is wrong."

Anyone who thinks that the majority of the insurgants/resistors/freedom fighters/whateverthefuckyouwanttocallthem are Iraqis is a fool

"The notion that the people of Iraq who are defending themselves against this brutal baby killing regime are some how "insurgents" is an admission that if their own country were invaded, their government killed and a puppet regime installed, and their children murdered in their beds from the brave use of cluster munitions from the brave altitude of 30,000 feet, they would step aside and not do anything about it."

Can we cut the horseshit? 'Baby-killing'? Keerist. Yeah. The USAF and USMC and US Army all go break down doors and try to find those goddamned annoying little 6 month old Iraqis, and slit their throats. That'll teach those little fuckers to cry at 3 AM.

I also certainly hope you have not truly deluded yourself into believing that the average Iraqi citizen was happy with Saddam's leadership, and his governmental policies...I realize how much it is overplayed by the pro-war side, but honestly, *look* at some of the horrors he committed against his own people. *LISTEN* to the rejoicing when he was captured, or even when we simply tore down his statue.

There is truly no hope for a rational discussion if you honestly believe that the US military is deliberately targeting unarmed civilians.

Opposing the war is one thing - the whole thing was based on a lie, and we have no legitimate reason to have gone there - but oppose it with facts and reason, not this bullshit 'baby killer' nonsense.

"After all, defending their country is "insurgency.""

Most of the people fighting are not defending their country, they're entering Iraq to fight the Coalition.

"Or is only white-skinned people who worship the "right" gods who are allowed to defend themselves against mass murdering terrorist fascist regimes?"

Go fuck yourself. How dare you presume that I am in favor of this war? How dare you even presume that I am in favor of this war because I am a racist, or because I despise non-Christians?

This is why nobody takes our side of the fence seriously, you fool - We have liars and curs of the lowest sort like yourself sharing it with us.

God Bless the Grannies...We love them sooooo much

Kee-rist
by Chi Chi Felipe Thursday, Jul. 28, 2005 at 4:27 PM
sethaskh@net.com 290-664-5362 99 Allmona Loop

Great googilly moogilly. What an amazing display of ignorance and out-dated methodology. Protests? Hey, 1967 called, it wants its stench back!

Freedom fighters? Are you people serious? Is this some kind of joke? You do realize that the insurgency in Iraq is less about "freeing Iraq" and more about removing America and replacing Saddam's brutal (remember that? Brutal and horrible and deliberately cruel, tortuos government that is no longer in place?) party with an equally brutal Muslim fascist state where raging grannies would be beheaded for being an affront to Allah. Please stop being so ignorant. Those recruiters were just doing their job as recruiters. How would you like it if a bunch of people came into the head shops where you guys work and disrupted business? Please, get over yourselves.

Instead of protesting against our brave Warriors both in our civilian communities AND in harms way why don't these raging granny's put care packages together and send to our Soldiers? Why don't they write letters to our Warrior's as they put their lives on the line. It's the Soldier who risks their life on a daily basis so that these raging granny's can do what they do. It shocks me to know that these granny's had husbands who either fought during World War II or jad parents who did. If they don't like what they see move to Russia, see how they like it there.

It seems like Chi Chi Felipe has long since forgotten his roots as a Latino and with it the spirit of the great Che and the revolutionary battles fought by the indefatigable Fidel Castro.

Chi Chi, for a man who was snuck across the border in a box of Manhandlers and got his first job as a mop boy at a San Francisco bathhouse, you've completely turned your back on not only the Latin community, but also the Gay Latin community and the Queer High for the Marijuana Guy community. You should be ashamed that you've been so fooled by the garbage being shoveled into you by the Fox media-controlled blogpodosphere and the blashphemies against Mother Gaia perpetrated by Bushitler, Karl Rove and Halliburton.

You need to strip to bare skin, dress in sackcloth and perform the Sioux ritual of the burning buffalo dung to repent your transgressions and increase your positive karma. You used to not be like this; you used to have the protest spirit...like back in '96 when we did a two-man sit-in at Jerry's House of Waffles and Chaw to protest the indignities suffered by the chicken eggs used in the waffle batter. You took sausage to the GROIN for the cause, man. Now, ever since you've been eating non-organic vegetables and that spicy tofurkey (I told you that stuff was from the Evil Dark Side of Karmic Chakrami!), you've completely thrown away the link we took 6 months to forge at the NAMBLA Bond Camp and the spiritual Eagle's Feather token that we got at the Bally's on 67th.

FOR SHAME, CHI CHI FELIPE. FOR SHAME.

Our sons and daughters continue to die and bleed
so you can continue your freedom to protest.

Women your ages and you just don't get.

NUTTS!!

They are "ALLOWED" to protest because our Son's and Daughter in the past, present and future have, are and will die. It's the Soldier who gives them the right to protest, not the politician or anyone else. Imagine what would happen if they did this in a communist country. Bubba you're a fool

Far from "giving" people the right to protest, the
armed forces of your benighted nation have always been in the forefront
of those suppressing free speech.
Your bloodthirsty sons and daughters have shot, beaten and
bayonetted protestors and strikers with gleeful sadism.
Your sons and daughters are murdering, torturing, sexual abusing monsters.
Keep them in Iraq; they are not wanted here.

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2004/05/18743.php

Are you to young to remember Vietnam -- I'm not, neither are the grannies. You did a lot of good over there (not) and what about all the vetrans still haunted by what they saw and what they did in the name of the United States of America.

War has never solved anything, except freed the slaves, gave our country its independence, stopped the spread of facism and genocide in Europe and ended the cruelty of Saddam Hussein's murderous government. Other than that, it never solves anything. Certainly hasn't solved the problem of the ultra-left wing liberal cackling hippy squadrons that insist on being contrarian no matter what the cause, so long as the cause is a decent one. Hippies, please stop. The 60's ended a long time ago. It's the new millenium. You are no longer relevant.

Seriously. This is 2005. There's no room for hippy crap any longer. Even Phish got the memo.

Man ,them old bitches are ugly.

Trained by U.S. occupiers; cowardly Iraqi collaborators threaten suspected freedom fighters with an electric drill.
Your U.S. troops are monsters; those who sent them are monsters, those who support them are monsters.

Right On, Grannies!! You're the stuff the "real America" is made of. Gather up all your friends from every senior citizen centers across the United States and March On against the injustices and lies issued by our government.

Thank You for standing up for the rights of all Americans and protesting against the "wrongdoers" in our White House. You've made all of us "proud"!

We can use more active citizens like you in our advocate groups. You're energy and expertise on life would be a great asset. Lead the way and others will follow.

On August 13,2005 there will be a March/Rally held in Washington,D.C. at Lafayette Park beginning at 8:00 AM, your voices will be welcome to help all of us implement change.

The whole world needs Grannies like you. Who knew that you were our Nations best "secret weapon"!

Move'em up! Head'em out!!

Our Grannies Are Marching Onward To Save America!!

I could not help but notice a response by someone using the initials, KB, to the article written about the Grannies and their protest.

It was quite obvious that KB thoroughly disliked our troops being in Iraq. The photo that was enclosed with the commment is not very flattering of our soldiers, to say the least.

However, we do not know why that photo was taken, or what happened before, which would give us the answer to this soldiers agressiveness. I'm sure the troops were only following direct orders from their superiors.

There are many of us who never thought that sending our troops to Iraq was justified. But, these men and women need support from all of us.

It's not their fault that they are in Iraq. They joined the military to defend our country. They must obey the orders of our Commander and Chief who sent them off to defend us and keep our Nation safe and defend us from Saddam Hussein.

They can't question these orders even if they were given under false pretension. Unfortunately, our troops must stay and fight because they have no choice in the matter.

I will agree that this "action" has put America and all of it's citizens in a "black light". We have lost the respect of many countries and are no longer considered trustworthy.

We should all thank the GRANNIES for stepping up to the plate and expressing their views on this unexcusable fiasco

JimmyJoe must be in dire need of glasses and some manners. From his remark, "those old bitches sure are ugly" is a good indication that he's not very educated (his use of the English language is extremely limited) and he most certainly had no proper upbringing.

It's very noticible that he was never taught to respect his elders. Tell me Jimmy, "do you also refer to your grandmothers as ugly bitches?"

When you reach the geriatric (forgot, you may not understand that word), correction, old age stage of your life make sure there's somone around who can provide the rest of the world with your photo. I can guarantee, you'll be grey, bent over and all wrinkled just like these wonderful Grannies.

But they have one up on you, they're respected and have enough guts to go out and demonstrate their opinions to the whole world.

It's doubtful that you'll ever achive very much in this world with your simple mind.

Have You made sure your taking your medication correctly? It sounds as though your thoughts are becoming very distorted.

Only those who are "power hungry" seek out to war against the rest of the world. You can't blame the soldier who's only following orders given to him by his Commander and Chief. The soldier has no choice but to obey his directive.

If you actually kept yourself informed to all aspects from the beginning of this war gauntlet in Iraq, it would be apparent that the majority of the American public did not want any of this to take place.

We should have stayed focused on the "terrorists" responsible for the attacks on the United States and it's citizens. However, it's our government leaders who make the final decisons inspite of the objections of the citizens.

If you were an American, you would know that we only worship "ONE GOD", not gods. We may worship HIM in many variances, but there's still only "ONE GOD"!
take place.

It's doubtful that KB can respond logically to anything. His irrational, irradical behavior is a strong indication of mental problems.

We all watch the news and have seen the horrors of war. But don't blame the American citizens, we didn't send our troops to Iraq our President did.

Send your photos to him. He's the one who needs to end the bloodbath. There's nothing you or I can do at this point.

It's not our fault that our President chose Iraq as a "war target" because he knew that insurgents from everywhere would unite in one area to fight their enemy which is "CHRISTIANITY".

These people aren't fighting for any other reason except their religion. They feel that "all Christians" must die. The insurgents believe that the Muslim religion is destined to rule the world.

Genocide seems to be the purpose behind the reason for any kind of "war". How barbaric our "civilized" people still are since we first stepped on this earth.

We're no better off than we were at creation. All these ages have come to pass, yet human beings have learned absolutely nothing from life's experiences!

SHAME ON US!!

Going through all the comments generated just because some senior citizens disagree with sending our troops to Iraq has been very interesting.

I'm sure the curiosity of some of these comments has made your mind ponder. Did it ever occur to anyone as to the real purpose of KB's dramatic photo shoots?

His remarks and the types of photography he revels in sure makes me wonder what "terrorist sleeper cell" he might belong to. He certainly fits the personality a profile.

kb is an orphaned girl who lives in Paraguay.....

It is not the raging Grannys of YOUR country that will expel the blood-thirsty occupiers from Iraq.

I am not writing an article, but do want to cheer you. I am a 61 year old retired teacher and I wish I had a group like you to join. I would love to be out there with you on Wednesdays. Go Girls!

The raging grannies need to understand that if we pull out of Iraq that it would make AMERICA appear weak and would invite more terrorist attacks on U.S soil. And how is it that you supported america going to war after pearl harbor but you are not in support of our war against terror? Do you want to live in fear for the rest of your life? Does there need to be another attack on american soil for you to realize that this is real,That people want to hurt Americans. I am PROUDLY serving in the U.S NAVY and in full support of our COMMANDER IN CHIEF. you can email me at christopher.haupt@navy.mil if you would like to discuss this further. Have a good day grannies. And enjoy your freedom it may not be around much longer....

DO you enjoy living in fear? fear of having terrorist attack america. you need to stop watching the news you know how the media takes things out of propations. why don't you start a peace rally in iraq then and see how long you live. because the terrorist don't care if you are in the military or not if you are american they want to kill you. so shut the fuck up.

What a MAN!
You gotta be one brave macho guy to tell older civilian women to SHUT UP!
For that matter where does anyone in the military get off telling any civilian to shut up- that reeks of facism.
You are a discrace.

Hahahah, hey, someone must have learned the word "fascism" in his summer school history class.

I PROUDLY SERVE
by christopher.haupt@navy.mil Monday, Aug. 08, 2005 at 7:58 PM

Well if you enjoy your freedom. if you enjoy your right to go against everything this country is about you better be grateful for the military. If you don't support this war why don't you go to Iraq and try and stop the americans, you will see just how quickly these terrorist don't like you even if you are on there side because all they see are americans and they want to kill americans. so shut the fuck up.....

I PROUDLY SERVE
by christopher.haupt@navy.mil Monday, Aug. 08, 2005 at 7:59 PM

0796 9486 7031 cayenne 7493
0957 8441 haupt 3189 8637
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6238 haupt 0925 1345 0971

We invaded Iraq to get oil. Period. No, repeat No connection had been made between Iraq and 911. The terrorists are the Bush admin.

Yes, there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11, and our reasons for going into Iraq were shady at best, but to say we went in there solely for oil is a pretty stupid thing to say. There are a lot better places to invade for oil, like Venezuela for example. Please stop being so repetitive, it's making the rest of us non-cons look bad.

SO did you want to wait around till saddam had made his WMD and used them on America before we actually stepped in and took in out of power? it is better to have a pro-active Commander in Chief than a re-active one don't you think.

To Chi F: Iraq is vital to have an oil supply pipeline through the middle east--check out this story on PBS's 'Frontline'. To Christopher: have you read the history of the cold war and how we were supposed to hate and fear the soviets? Once glasnost began and we became friends with them, lo and behold they were too freakin poor and disorganized to have ever been a real threat. It was all just a roost to protect capitalism-not democracy.

The same paper tiger is at work trying to scare us with Irag. WMD?? Where is the proof?? Most folks in Iraq were happy to have running water and electricity and jobs and relative stability. They could send their kids to school without fearing they were going to get blown up. Now there is utter chaos with over 100,000 estimated Iraqi casualties--most women and children. This invasion has in fact escalated terrorism and hatred of America around the world.

We are not there to stop terrorism or some fake propaganda about WMDs. It's for Bush's oil cronies to make more money.

My step father died from Viet Nam. How many more fathers have to die in this similar debacle in Iraq?

Those 10,000 people that die everyday in Iraq are because of the sucicide bombers and the road side bombs not because of americans. Those are the Iraqi people blowing themselves up. And you are right we didn't find any WMD but what's not to say that they were in the makings or that he didn't already deport them because he knew the americans were going to invade. Now let's say we didn't invade two years ago and Iraq was going on with whatever they were doing, and in 5 years or so they do make a WMD then what? Iraq would not hesitate to use them on America. And also saddam was killing his own people using chemical and biological gases on his own people. doesn't that distrub you at all? And all those people that are dying are doing it to protect your freedom here. do you want to live in fear? a fear that makes you so paranoid to even go outside of your home because you think a terrorist is going to attack you? i don't want to live like that and i don't think anyone should live like that.GOD BLESS AMERICA and AMERICA BLESS GOD

As Franklin Rossevelt said "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." No, I am not paranoid about terrorists. What I am paranoid about, however, are the restrictions of our constitutional rights under the guise of 'fighting terrorism". Most of those killed by roadside bombs are military and corporate reps. The vast majority of Iraqi civillians are killed by US military.

And, this agurment of attacking before 'they' attack us is quite absurd and extremely evil. What f*ucking right does the US have to use this argument? What if every other country were to do this as well? We'd destroy this planet faster than you can say Saddam.

Do yourself, me, and this country and the world for that matter a favor and turn off Fox news and listen to other voices around the globe. We are all human beings trying to live together in peace. Bush is undermining this goal at a dangerous and alarming rate. May God help us indeed.

Yes, Iraq was a wonderful place to live before the American imperialists showed up. Children were free to learn all about their great leader Saddam and how wonderful he was. And the torture camps, the brutal executions, the state-sponsored murders and other Orwellian measures of control the Ba'ath party used to crush its oppostition, hell even people who <i>might</i> be considered opposition, I bet each and every Iraqi misses those days. Who wouldn't? Totalitarian regimes totally rock! And you can say that America "tortured" those people in Abu Ghraib, but that stuff was bush league (no pun intended). Those types of "torture" methods would have never been used under Saddam since they were barely torture at all. You have just been OWNED.

Before the Iraq invasion, you didn't know a goddam thing about Iraq. Stop pretending that you know anything about Iraq. People were better off under Saddam Hussein. They didn't have to worry about being occupied by the biggest weapons dealer on the planet. Their standard of living was quite high before nearly all of their infrastructure was demolished and the sanctions were established. At least under Saddam they had food, running water and medicine for sick children. The US systematically did away with all of that during the first invasion and subsequent sanctions.

I am no friend of Saddam (or any 'leaders' at all), but you can't argue with facts. Oh wait, facts have no relevance to you.

I have an Iraqi friend who thought that invasion was a good thing until he went home and saw that his neighborhood was destroyed. Their is nothing more fascist than having your entire way of life demolished, friends and loved ones killed, emprisoned, tortured, and humiliated.

Are you that delusional? Seriously. You cannot be serious. When did the left become so fucking insane? How about this, tard. The Germans were better off under Hitler. He brought them back from economic disaster, the standard of living in Germany was second to none, and national socialism provided for those in need. I read a book about WW2, where a guy thought removing Hitler was a good idea, until he went back and saw his entire city had been firebombed by the U.S. Shit like this makes me seriously consider voting Rethuglican.

The left became insane A LONG TIME AGO. They let the socialist, marxist, PC douche bags become the main stream and if they keep letting the far leftist run the party, they will never see the white house again.

"IF" they ever return to what the democratic party used to be in the old days, I'll give the party a second look in the ballot box......till then, it's straight republican....

Au conraire, Sandman and ChiF...the rebuplicans these days are the ones who are increasingly seen as out of touch and in some cases downright dangerous ninnies.

I say to you...if the Republicans were once as they were, namely fiscally responsible true conservatives, not the rabid far right religous freaks spend and spend on a needless invasion meanwhile we slip in education, healthcare, and social justice meters globally...I would just might vote their way. As it is I'm independent.

I hate to say it, but with all due respect, you'd have to be a downright dumb-ass to support the current administration. Period.

We agree on something, believe it or not. I don't think we should be in Iraq either. Spending American blood, money and resources on that sandbox and it's people is not justifiable. They aren't worth our money or lives.

I am an isolationist Republican....it's a rare breed I know....I really don't care about the "suffering" or "the plight" of people around the world. IMO, we should have let the Bosnian situation sort itself out, Mogadishu was a waste of time and effort, as is this latest campaign in Iraq. Untold billions could have been spent on improving America's technological sector, eduation, what have you..

But I chose Bush over Kerry because I don't need to have my tax rate jacked up to 50% to fund nationalized health care or any other socialist ideas. I work hard for what money I make and paying more and more taxes does not agree with me....

The world can sort itself out....we cannot continue to be the worlds "Band-Aid" on every crisis that pops up.

If Bush is sos concerned about the "freedom" of the Iraqi people, let them revolt as we did against the british crown 200 some odd years ago...

Saddam was killing his own people, did your friend tell you that? Saddam invaded a little place called Kuwait, did your friend tell you that? come on. Would you want to live under Saddam's rule? i sure as hell would not and apparently neither would your friend since they left Iraq in the first place right? I am not saying you have to support this invasion but you could at least support the troops that are over there fighting for your freedoms here at home. Lets say we pull out now what would that do to america? make us look weak and invite more attacks on american soil. do you want that?

Christopher-

When we finally finally pulled out of Viet Nam after over ten hellish years and tens of thousands of American lives lost, the roof did not fall in. You assume that 'terrorists' have only existed in recent memory. They have been around as long as we have had wars. So, the amount of 'terrorism' did not measurable increase as a result of pulling out of Nam. Nor will it happen in Iraq.

The Bush propaganda machine would have us all live in a constant state of fear and paranoia. Bush will not pull out forces in Iraq because he has not sufficiently colonized it yet--need stability for the McDonalds, Coke factories, and pipelines to thrive, you understand.

C - we are not in Iraq to secure our 'freedoms' at home. On the contrary, Bush is using 911 and the supposed rise in 'terrorism' as an excuse to DECREASE our constitutional freedoms as in the Patriot Act and homeland insecurity.

I support our troops by calling for their immediate return home to their loving families.

cat got your tongue? don't know what to say now?

You have to read the catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask yourself how anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring our troops home from Iraq, sit back, reset the snooze alarm, go back to sleep, and no one will ever bother us again. In case you missed it, World War III began in November 1979... that alarm has been ringing for years.

If you're not happy with the way things are, folks, don't gripe about it... PRAY about it!!! Because nothing is more powerful than prayer and our God who answers them. May God bless America, our troops, our president, and, yes, you.

US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave. It is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary.

AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!!!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were killed -AD) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 25 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.

America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut When it explodes, it kills 63 people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later in 1983 a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.

Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August 1985 a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.

Fifty-nine days later in 1985 a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.

Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.

The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.. These attacks were planned with precision. They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back
to sleep.

The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but
we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.

The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough. America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever.. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "... it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage, political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't have the backbone to do, both Democrat and Republican. This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.

what do you all think about this cindy sheean lady that is camping out at the presidents ranch? Do you think the president is right in not meeting with her?

Bush is a fool, and for him to show the public that he's even more of a fool by talking to her would be even foolish for him. So, in all actuality, since he is a fool, I would think he would go talk to her. But, now she's gone, so he can't. He could still give her a ring though.

You think Bush is a fool? do you think you could do a better job running a country? i don't think so. so maybe you should just shut the hell up.

Wow, you really told me... Actually I know I could do a better job of running this country than the pirate who's in office now.....We elected one of the worst Presidents of this Nation's history, and alot of people realize that, apparently you don't.....I hope you come to see just what this human (sorry couldn't quite call him a man) is doing to our nation and our planet..... Impeach Bush, Sept 24th!!!!!!

when you said "one of the worst presidents we elected" does that mean that you voted for him too? can i ask you something? have you been to iraq? have you seen what goes on over there? where you there when saddam was the ruler? where you there when saddam was killing his own people? no, you weren't so you probably don't know as much as you think you know. and you probably dropped out of high school so i doubt that you can run this country. so i think i hear your mom calling you better go home.

Apparently I'm talking to a genius here. Well, no of course I didn't vote for this President in the last election (only fools did). And no I haven't been to Iraq. No, I haven't seen what goes on over there. No, I wasn't there when Saddam was ruler. No, I wasn't there when Saddam was killing his own people (If it is true). Just because I wasn't there doesn't mean that I don't know as much as I think I know. And, no I'm not the smartest person on the planet, but I do have a very good understanding of the issues that affect us all (domestically and foreign). Actually I'm a senior at ASU. And yes my mom still does call me. So you know all about our world problems right? Why do you think this President and administration decided to go to Iraq? Did it have anything to do with money? Did have to do with oil?? Did it have anything to do with ICBM's pointed at this country? Saddam was no threat to this country....so why did 'Duh-buh' go after him?

ALright mr. senior at asu.... calm down.... Saddam was no threat to our country? why do you think he was killing his own people? he was testing his chemicals and who do you think he wanted to use those chemicals on? think about it just a little bit. and what if we didn't go in and stop him and take saddam out of power? he would have continued whatever it was that he was doing and when saddam wanted to he would have attacked america and then everyone would have been like president bush didn't stop saddam and we had the chance to. it is better to be proactive than reactive don't you agree mr. senior. would you rather stop the problem before it starts? or clean up and try and fix it after it already happened? you saw what a little group did to our country didn't you on 9/11. imagine what they are going to do with a WMD. so mr. cool guy at asu that hasn't been out of this country to see any of the world maybe you need to just be quite.

Bling/guess who: if only your brain was as smart as your ass...

But then, only dumb asses voted for Bush. So many countires cry out for our help because their rulers 'are killing thier own people." Iraq was not one of them, and yet Bush saw to it that we invaded thier country-it is not a war, it is an invasion. And, by doing so, the terrorist threat is even worse several times over. Even top Republicans are now seeing this.

We are there, and our young people are dying, and over 100,000 Iraqi civillians have been killed in order to secure an oil pipeline through the middle east. Period. It has *nothing* to do with terrorism. And for the upteenth time, there has been NO connection made between 911 and Iraq. If you would turn off Fox "news" you would know that.

And, you don't have to be a senior at ASU to know this. You just need to get your head out of your ass. Just wait till '06...you neo cons and war screamers will see a huge backlash, mark my words.

are you part of a terrorist cell that is going to backlash in 06? and what kinda senior are you are sitting here arguing with me on a friday night. i just think you are a loser. i am at work so what is your excuse?

I'm gonna start at the beginning......What does this say...and can you answer it? What color do you get when you mix yellow and blue? I just want to see if you can answer a question. If you can get that right then maybe I'll reply back to you......

Wait, so let me get this straight: saddam was no threat to this counrty? how old were you when the first gulf war took place? saddam was as much of a threat, if not more, than the first gulf war. no he might not have had direct influence on 9/11 but who does fund those terrorists? and speaking of 9/11, were we at war at the time, invading another country, or bothering anyone to bring that upon America? Did we deserve that? So since we are in war now we deserve terrorists to attack us? Not sure if you realize this but there are also terrorists in iraq. so even if we didn't go in for the right reasons as you say, we're still showing our colors so those damn terrorists know who we are and that we're not scrweing around. AND UNDER ANY PRESIDENT, I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. CAUSE DAMN DO I ENJOY MY FREEDOM!

Ahhhh....the magical word, 'freedom.' Do you really think you have 'freedom?" You should seriously look the word up in the dictionary. Oh, and while your at it check out the word insurgent too. Does the definition somehow apply to what the US is doing to Iraq???? Where do you come up with all of your garbage reasons? Stop watching the mainstream news. Educate yourself with stuff other than what you are now, because you're being fed a bunch of B.S., and your believing it. Take that extra step and question what you believe; find out for yourself instead of having others spoon feed it to you. Good luck......

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050725fa_fact

So you know all that is happening over there Iraq? You're the one with all the answers. Man, What are you doing still in the University, I mean geez you must have it all worked out. Quick Tell us what Needs to be done. You do understand though that most of your posts on here would have a consequence of Execution. Oh wait a minute, you even getting your education would mean going to prison. You owning a PC, well you'd probably be murdered. Essentially that's what it would mean if you were living in Iraq a year or two ago. Hey guess what, you can start getting an education now. OH SH$! HOw about this, Even having a Democracy upon which they can vote for the ones they WANT to lead them. But then again you're right, we invaded them and forced these terrible things called Freedoms of Choice and Will upon them. They never really wanted that. Forget it, let's send Saddam back in, move Everyone out, so that all those soldiers that did Die, would have died in Vein and that way, they can get the torture chambers and cells running up again, this way women can be raped openly, children can't get educations, and what a perfect guy to put back in, i mean this way he can massacre everyone again. You were right all along, big bad ASU man. I want you to Google, cuz i know you will, Pararescue, see what it's about, see what these men, including me in October have to go through, to ensure people like you are safe and sound and able to disrespect the nation, soldiers and government without any harm coming to you whatsoever.

Do you know what a fallacy is? Because you’re committing them left and right. If you stop using run-on sentences you might look a little bit more credible. Also, a question ends with a question mark (Man, What are you doing still in the University,...). Oh, and you can spell out the word shit; you don't have to use symbols for the 'it' in shit. So.....where are you getting all of your information for what was going on in Iraq while Saddam was in power? Really I want to know, because I wasn't aware of all of the horrible conditions there. And, while you’re at it can you show me where you got your info on Saddam and his 'chemicals?' You said he was testing them on his own people then going to test them on us. Just how was he going to use them on us? So where were the chemicals or WMDs when the United States attacked? Oh wait they never existed.....So how was our country in danger? Please tell me, because so far you've given me crap. If your going to make an argument have something to back it up, and none of this bs that you get from the President or t.v. news. Your a smart person; for one you can read and write (not bad anyways), you have a job (means your not that lazy), and you can somewhat think critically (otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion). So, with that in mind, do some research. I'm sorry you signed up already, because it seems that you want to go over there for the wrong reasons (in fact there is no right reason for going over there, unless it's to help us withdrawal). I checked out the Pararescuers web page and it was down....By the way have you ever seen Band of Brothers? Now there was a noble cause....To let you know; I for one never felt my life was in danger by Saddam. And for you to think that your going over there 'to ensure people like you (me) are safe and sound and able to disrespect the nation' is a complete farce. The only people you’re protecting by going over there is the President, his cronies, and people who live in a nation that doesn’t want us. You don’t think you’re being a little ethnocentric with all of your ideas? And, I would really like to see where you’re getting your info from.

http://www.denniskyne.com/
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/index.php?topic=16

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-13-saddam-secrets-usat_x.htm there's the torture cells.. where you know their eyes were gouged out and genitals burnt, necks slashed that kind of stuff. 310 vest explosives found in Baghdad. Do they just carry that for no reason. Ha, i didn't put a question mark either because I know that's all you're going to be able to come back at me with is "Proper Grammar", which is apparently to you the serious matter at hand...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack
Here a poison gas was used to kill/slaughter 5,000 people in the city of Halabja. Or did they all just decide to inhale poisonous fumes at the same time? Cuz i mean Saddam can't carry chemical weapons. Do you really think the first place we look we're going to find Weapons of Destruction. They could be anywhere. Unless you've searched everywhere out there yourself you CANNOT say to me that they don't have them. Cause you DO NOT KNOW!

Also you're not talking to the other guy, this is a new guy. I bet you're the kind of person who if you saw a girl being attacked/raped in by 4 people and you're the only one to see, You would do Nothing about it.. OR if a handicapped man was being robbed, you would turn.. You would rather ignore what happened and turn away because, i mean hey, it's not happening to you. Right? We're not in danger so let's let them worry about their families being murdered, slaughtered, raped, dismembered and mutilated. RIGHT! LET's TURN AWAY FROM THAT! LETS NOT BOTHER HELPING SOMEONE ELSE IN THEIR TIME OF NEED! look at http://www.specialtactics.com or even here http://members.tripod.com/~thede/faq.html#How%20to%20train%20for%20Pararescue. you know just go to both. I leave not because I'm going to get oil, not for any political reason. I leave for the soldiers out there who need my help. Cause when someone's shooting at you, when bullets are flyin, all the Political BS flies out the window, none of it matters, it's all about the man next to you. That's all it is. I leave for the men who Need my help. So you're wrong, cuz when i save even just one persons life. that makes it all worth it, knowing you did that. You can go get your degree sit in your office do your thing, cuz that's what you do, i'm not knocking your dreams at all, but you tread on mine, Pararescue is what I do. You do your thing, I do mine.

Oh ya, when going to the second website, be sure to check out the pipeline as well as where it says Indoc.

so where is your information coming from? these websites you've posted? because the internet holds so much more truth than the news they must be right (note the sarcasm)! i just checked out the info shop website and they had the audacity to say "the innocent people of hiroshima and nagasaki."they are as ignorant as you are! the people of japan were doing more harm to themselves and china and they brought the nuke bombs upon themselves. we warned them more than enough times. and now the same holds true. we warned saddam and he of course did not believe us. and of course we warned al qaida, but their pride is more than their smarts leading them to defeat as it did with saddam and so many others. and freedom? do i think i have freedom? aside from all the ways that you have freedom have been posted, i know i do! since i have been to other countries (unlike yourself) and have been frowned upon because i was a woman wearing my head high as if i were a man! you wouldn't have to worry about that being a man and all, but i enjoy my right to vote, to say what i want in this messageboard, to talk back to my husband without fear of being slapped/ humiliated, to speak to whom i please, and to do all the things that the decleration of independe has entitled me (such as pursuit of happiness). do yourself a favor and get over that fact that war does suck but it is inevitable. war has been apart of the human race since the beginning of time. you can't change that. all you can do is accept it and thank a soilder for you freedom. in fact thatnk every military branch cause without us, you'd be shitting your pants in fear! the only reason why you have nothing to fear now is because of us!!

The sad fact is that if U.S. troops are kept in Iraq, the rest of the world is safer. Withdraw troops from Iraq and who will be invaded next? The U.S. forces of conquest and oppression must stay there until their ranks are decimated and demoralized.
Retired U. S. Gen. Barry McCaffrey recently reported about weaknesses in the U.S. armed forces caused by the war against Iraq to a U.S. Senate committee:
"4th - "The other shoe" - a war with North Korea, Venezuela, Syria, Iran, or Cuba that draws away U.S. military forces and political energy."
http://www.foreign.senate.gov/testimony/2005/McCaffreyTestimony050718.pdf
Be careful in calling for an end to the war against Iraq; your home may be the next bombed by the imperialists.

Great heavens. If you think Saddam was only "allegedly" murdering, torturing, and summarily executing his people, you're clearly retarded. There have been countless books, articles, and yes, even the occasional website, about his brutality. The things Saddam did to his own people make Abu Ghraib look like a kid's slumber party prank. Grow up and stop being such a contrarian for the sake of being one.

what's wrong mr. senior at asu nothing to say?

Both of my grandmothers passed away long before I was born. If they were here I wish they would participate with the lovely grandmothers who protest the war in Iraq. Support the troops, bring them home. Thank you.

support the troops and bring them home... with them also bring the terrorists.. yeah good thinking lady.

PRESIDENT BUSH IS THE BEST PRESIDENT WE HAVE HAD IN A WHILE. KEEP GOING PRESIDENT BUSH AMERICA SUPPORTS YOU....

Referendums to gain back the voice Of the People, By the People & For the People. Remove Military from Iraq; Iraq has an unwanted Constitution by Bush; utilize resources available now for fuel; give Iraq's Oil back & Audit the profits from the Oil taken illegally & absolutely NO DRAFT unless Bush/Cheney's Daughters go Front Lines along with other polititicians sons and daughters. Share their Ugly eager for an unauthorized WAR.

How do you know this is an unwanted constitution? Were you there when saddam was ruler? the constitution in iraq is for the people of iraq written by the people of iraq. Look after the treaty was signed in Japan we helped them with a constitution and look how good japan is now? have you ever been out of america? have you ever seen third world countries? probably not. The people of Iraq want this liberation and support it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050906/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_saddam

for all of you who think saddam is innocent....

Nobody has anything to say?

If you truly want to support the troops in Iraq and you are under the age of 45, you need to enlist. The men and women over there joined up for NATIONAL Guard service - I'm sure they envisioned themselves rescuing people off of rooftops when they joined up. Instead, they're breathing irradiated dessert dust and having their healthcare benefits cut.

I think it's so ironic that there are all these "war supporters" out there and we can't get enough recruits to cut those guys a break over there. SHUT UP OR PUT UP AND JOIN UP.

i agree. Many People don't know what it's like to put your life on the line for your country.

Anyoone who would like a DVD of the Tucson Raging Grannies doing their thing at the Army Recruitiment Center, and appearing later on the Today Show, send me a request by e-mail: staff@greenvalleymedia.org. $5 for shipping and handling.They're very cool!

nobody wants to buy the ragging grannies dvd. they are stupid and don't really stand for anything. they should make dvd's and videos and send those out to our troops. send them out carepackages and what not. not some stupid video of some stupid grannies trying to be funny and enlist in the armed forces. i hate the grannies. they need to just stay in the nursing home where they will be safe.

Excellent Action! I'm inspired! Will organize a similar action here in Gainesville Florida soon. Keep up the struggle.

It amazing to see the emotion in all of these articles. Also equally interesting in the fact most of the "Bush Supporters" and articles writen in protest of the actual protest omit their full names or only identify themselves as a "Bush Supporter" it is as if they themselves are ashamed of what they are writing. There have also been a number of comments about the rights in America verses the rights in other countries and how that makes us more free and better. Fortunately we do have many rights and freedoms these are also called civil liberaties and many have been curtailed through policies brought on by the current and prior Republican administration, more specifically after the USA "Patriot Act" and other acts. Please re educate yourselfs out of your current dogma, and be enlightened to the world you actually live in. A world that sees the USA and George Bush Jr as more of a threat to our freedom then Iraq ever was. Those of you who claim to travel to the 3rd world ask those people how they preceive your government and your country. You live in the most dangerious rogue state, just be a bit more aware of it please.

so where are you from then? I am sure America has helped your sorry ass country more than once so you probably should be a little grateful of america. I have been to 3rd world plenty of times and they are very grateful and are always happy to see the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps. Mr. Bush is doing the right thing by getting rid of the evil doers of our world. After we helped japan write a constitution there country and nation has been fine. Would you like the terrorist to continue to do just that and terrorize the world cause we will not convert to islam/muslim? do you want to continue to look over your shoulder every time you go out of your house? nobody should be afraid of these terrorist and mr. bush is doing a fine job and getting rid of them. one at a time if we need to.

I agree with "bush supporter" - it's disgusting to me to see so many Americans - and foreigners that come to our country to live and benefit from america - trash the one place that will allow them to be here. If you want to trash this country so badly, leave. Either go travel back to where you came from or get the heck out of here. Ungrateful folks don't deserve to benefit from our country. Period.

You should take your own advice...... "Take that extra step and question what you believe; find out for yourself instead of having others spoon feed it to you."... and while you're at it, you should find another place to live. You don't deserve to be here.

you dont think the weeping girl photo could have been doctored do you, nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooo its only the evil bush group that lies isnt it. www.theotheriraq.com and see what other people think

If the taliban took over 30 more countries the lefties wouldn't care. Not until it affected them. If the taliban found their way to that fat bastard Ted Kennedy's house, then MAYBE you might see him speak up about it. I wouldn't count on it tho.

These Grannies are misguided, and here is why:
I ask myself what would be the reason for their picking and choosing from the facts which allows them to be so wrong? I think it is their reference point. I think their reference point is whatever makes them feel good. Such as, if women like us, ruled the world then there would be peace. However,the real reason is really a mystery to me. The fact, and you can test this as many times as you wish, "The Muslim position is to convert us or kill us non-Muslims. They can lie to achieve their goals." The source of these facts are every objective expert on the Muslims and their own books. Those books being the Hadiths, and their Quran. Given these facts please check them out. If you find them to be true then apply them to the recent situation with Iraq, Iran, and Israel. Are there any inconsistencies? I think you'll find there are none. When you come to this realization, the next fact will determine your actions. Is it better to fight or to be killed? There are plusses and minuses to both arguments. For instance, if we all let them kill us then they can take over the world. establish their theocracy, and live. The downside to this is we are letting down all the Muslims who are Muslim because they are too weak, too uneducated, too young, or too afraid to fight back. The good part to this is we don't have to live with their lies, and their version of God. The other option is to fight back. If we fight back we lose people, and we get to live as we choose for a longer period of time if we are successful. If we are successful, then as happened in 1684 they will finally be weakened enough that it will take them hundreds of years to get enough power to start converting or killing us again. In case this is confusing, the Muslims were finally defeated in 1684 per the world book encyclopedia article on them. The Muslims converted its converts primarily by armed conquest. This started roughly in 650 A.D. It started with Mohammed attacking caravans. Note they had a 1000 year run at conquering the whole world. And as noted earlier they wish to convert you or kill you. It is their religion. It is not what you are normally familiar with. Also they are told to lie when it advances the religion. Thus, it is really not possible to ask them what their view on the situation is, as they will tell you whatever suits them. They will say their religion is a religion of peace when asked. All evidence is opposite of this statement. So, when they say their religion is a religion of peace, it is a lie. The trick of the lie is that their religion is a religion of submitting to God, their version, and in making peace with their version of God. Thus it is a religion of peace with their version of God. There are many such statements that can be refuted as lies, half lies and outright lies by Muslims. However, you and everyone can do the work yourself, rather than having me or someone else explain it to you. Check the facts about the Muslim religion. Do the work yourself and double check. Do they require that Muslim's convert you or kill you? Do the Muslim's say it is okay to lie to further the religion with us non-Muslims? If they do then you too can understand virtually all the responses in the Middle East. If they do not then you can ignore this entire message, because it is wrong.
cpmmjh

This post is full of lies. Neither the Qu'ran nor the hadith advocates killing non-Muslims who won't convert, nor is this practice of Muslims. Consider these very simple facts:

1. Lebanon is about half-Christian and half-Muslim.
2. There are many Christians in Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt.
3. Tariq Aziz, the number two person in Iraq in President Hussein's government was and is Roman Catholic.

If these struggles were about killing all non-Muslims, you'd think al-Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas and all the other Islamist militias would concentrate on ridding their own countries of Christians before bothering with the USA or Europe. They have not been.

The struggles in Iraq, Palestine, and by extension against the American and European governments supporting the Zionist entity and the invasion of Iraq, are anti-imperialist struggles, not religious struggles.
Hamas has reached out to Christian Palestinians wiling to fight the Zionists. Hezbollah has reached out to Lebanese Christians willing to fight the Zionists. Christians are involved in the Iraqi Resistance.

Anti-Muslim sectarianism is not the answer--a united front against imperialism is the answer.

In order for a muslim to go to heaven he must kill an infidel. is that not right? and an infidel is anyone who is not a muslim. am i right?

While those who willingly give their lives as martyrs automatically go to heaven, according to Islam (and Christianity as well), that is only a sufficient condition for salvation, not a necessary one. All that is required for a Muslim to enter paradise is to lead a righteous life according to the teachings of the Qu'ran. Nothing in the Qu'ran teaches that killing a non-believer is required to enter paradise. Indeed, killing a non-believer who isn't treatening Islam is considered a common murder and will get you into hell (particularly since that non-believer might eventually have converted to Islam, and by killing him you may have denied him the possibility of salvation).

The Qu'ran teaches believers to respect Christians and Jews as "people of the book" and specifically states that those Christians who follow their beliefs will have nothing to fear on the day of judgment. Of course respect has to be mutual. If Jews are occupying your land and killing your people and Christians are helping them, it is of course perfectly legitimate to target those Jews and Christians.

Muslims are perfectly capable of distinguishing Christian American soldiers who are occupying Iraq (and therefore should be killed) from Christian Arabs who have nothing to do with the occupation (and are not harmed).

But all the troops in Iraq are being attacked reguardless of religion. And the muslims in Iraq are killing themselves with all these car bombs and such. so which group of muslim is the real group. which group of muslims follow the koran the closest? because if you ask me all muslims are terrorist and want to destroy america and for what? i don't know

Even if invading American troops are Muslims, they are still invading Iraq and they must therefore be killed. The Shi'ite factions are siding with the Americans and the Iranians and trying to undermine the resistance, and they are traitors and should also be killed. The Sunni factions, the Ba'ath Resistance, and al-Qaida are struggling against the Americans, and they should be supported.

Terrorism is a tactic, not a religion. When Reagan threatened the Soviet Union with nuclear anihilation, that was terrorism. When "Israel" walls Palestinians into ghettos, that is terrorism. When Bush the elder and Clinton blockaded Iraq to try to starve its people, that was terrorism. When Jew-loving regimes lock up people like David Irving, Ernst Zundel and Germar Rudolf for no other offense than disputing alleged historical events, that is terrorism also.

The question is not whether a tactic is terrorism, but whether it is justified. Whether or not it is justified depends on which side one is on and one's vision of the future of humanity. I, for one, am sick and tired of a world run by Jews and imperialists. I'm for killing as many of them and their lackeys as possible, by any means necessary, including aircraft into trade centers and the Pentagon.

Mr. Walsh
by PROUD AMERICAN AND CHRISTIAN Tuesday, Sep. 26, 2006 at 10:54 PM

I am praying for you Kevin Walsh. May God, the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.

I came across this article looking up a recruiting station for my daughter. I think the "Grannies" are quite cute and love the fact that there are people out there practicing their rights of freedom. I am proud to have my husband in Afghanistan (Army), a daughter and son-in-law in Iraq (both in Army) (while their 1-year-old stays here with me); as well as another daughter and son-in-law (Army) in Italy and yet one more daughter in Alaksa (Army) in the military. Not to mention my daughter who is now ensliting in the Air Force (the one I was looking up a recruiting station for). All except the child getting ready to join the Air Force have been in the Army for several years. You cannot tell me that because they joined prior to war - that it is there fault for "following orders"? Our country has done a great many things that it should not be proud of - but to not support our troops would be the biggest sin this country could make. Whether it be the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Guard, Reserves - we ALL depend on these people every day. How would you like to go to sleep at night knowing that these people were not there? To prevent ANY person from not joining the military would be a great injustice to this country, to themselves and to those who are preventing it from happening. Change the President, the Congress and the Senate if you do not like the politics - but do not change the people standing guard outside your door while you are sleeping at night. By the way the people standing outside your door include MY husband, MY 2 daughters and MY two son-in-laws!! They are the heroes that the comments up above keep referring back to - not the ones writing in these comments - not the ones self-congragutulating themselves for being arrested ("even though the other journalists weren't") and not even these grannies - who absolutely have the right to protest (because the military gave them that freedom) but who did no better than the people they are complaining about by preventing the freedom of others to join the military. Grannies - go protest where you can do some good - like the White House!! I hope that you succeed - for I would also like my family to be home this coming holiday season - but not at the expense of our military forces. God Bless the United States and those who protect her.

SON OF A BITCH,,,,, this is why we should lock the doors on the old folks home.

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no inorder for a muslim to go to heaven he needs to be blown the fuck up by a Marine. :P

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by Jan Harwood Saturday, Jun. 23, 2007 at 2:52 PM
jahn@cruzio.com 312 Elm St, Santa Cruz, CA 95060

We're a gaggle of WILPF (Women's International League for Peace and Freedom) Raging Grannies in Santa Cruz, and some of us are planning a similar action soon, with the support of a fairly large number of our peace-worker friends. We are so proud of you, as you've set an example for all the country, as well as for the granny groups and other elderly women around the world. Thank you. It was funny (something I always appreciate), but absolutely real.
My sister Granny, Sherry Conable has written a song about you, which we sing at many gatherings, and will sing next week. Peace, Jan

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