Minutemen Invade Phoenix : AZ IMC

“NO RACIAL ATTACKS!” their event announcement says. It's polite of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps to try to keep their message clean of blatant racism, but just the fact that they have to demand that of their event attendees gives you some insight into what this is all about.

They've started protesting in areas of Phoenix where a lot of day laborers stand waiting for work. On November 12th, the minutemen protested near the Macehualli Work Center off of Bell Rd., and on November 19th, they protested at 36th St. and Thomas. Twenty to thirty people held signs such as “Mayor and Governer: This is OUR Katrina” (?!?!), “How many are too many?” “It is illegal to hire illegals.” They were waving their american flags like they wanted to wipe the workers away with them.

On November 12th, they stood at the corners of a major intersection near the work center, but soon marched to the center, attempting to aggressively gain access, despite the center being private property. Calm workers closed the gate on them to keep them out, but it didn't keep them from yelling or taking photos of the people inside through the gate. A lot of harassment went on. Clearly an attempt at intimidation, a minuteman told the workers that their pictures would be put on the internet, although the threat seems rather pointless. Technically they were breaking the law by trespassing, but clearly only immigration laws mean anything to them. The police were called, and although the protesters demanded the immigrants be deported, all the police did was tell the minutemen and co. to stay on the opposite side of the street from the center because it was indeed private property.

The minutemen must have realized their harassment was only making them look bad, because they toned it down a little the next weekend (or maybe their bullhorn just ran out of battery power). However, a local woman from a neighborhood watch group made up for the lack of amplified harassment. First she was telling the media that most criminals are Mexicans, and then she was yelling, arguing, flailing her arms, and chastising the workers for not knowing the pledge of allegiance. I overheard a minuteman saying something like “She doesn't know better, she's not a minuteman”. I took this to mean she doesn't know to keep her racist anger to herself. The minutemen want an image that does not appear racist nor frantic.

Some of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps members, such as Stacey O'Connell, don't follow their own Standard Operating Procedure (SOP), which states that they "are courteous to everyone with whom they come into contact" and "do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens". One might figure since they were harassing people that they decided not to follow this SOP while they're not at the border, but in fact their event announcement they said "We operate under our MM (Minuteman) SOP." I guess the SOP is a bunch of BS just like their claims that the MM SOB's are not racist.

The protests were intended to focus on employers of undocumented immigrants, although they aimed most of their harassment towards the immigrants. They wanted to keep the workers from getting picked up for work in that particular area and they may have succeeded to some extent for a short time. Although many of the workers weren't picked up for the three hours that the minutemen were there, it seemed to be a bonding experience amongst their crowd as they cheered while some workers and supporters interviewed for spanish-language media.

The preference of those organizing with day laborers was that there not be a counter-demonstration to oppose the minutemen. Legal observers came out to make sure no one's rights were being violated. A couple folks showed up later on with anti-racist signs, which made their way into media photos.

The minutemen and various other anti-immigrant folks don't like to be called racist. Surely we can call it racism, but we must acknowledge the complexity of their position on immigration. Their problem is with the act of crossing the border illegally, living here illegally, working illegally, not speaking English, “not being educated,” etc. They're prejudiced, but it's not just about race.

For the most part, anti-immigrant folks feel completely comfortable scape-goating people who don't have much control over any of the actual problems that cause their situation, having to move to the US in order to support themselves and families. A handful of those against immigration take a position against the poor conditions in Mexico and the United States' role in the creation of those conditions. A few realize that U.S. interests lie in the exploitation of workers and that they're complicit in illegal immigration for the cheap labor. The rest (and some of the formerly-mentioned) just blame the immigrants and talk about them or treat them like they're less than human, which is why they're called racist.

Many want all undocumented immigrants deported as soon as possible. This includes children and adults who have never lived in another country. It's common for anti-immigrant folks to equate undocumented with terrorists or to call them all rapists.

Ignore the folks who use racial stereotypes, allegations of immorality, etc. for a moment and let's consider those who say they're not racist. It is commonly said by anti-immigrant folks that undocumented immigrants have a detrimental affect on "our culture". These sorts of statements imply that there is one culture in the US. Most people would disagree that there is one culture in the US. If we are to use their fallacy and talk about one U.S. culture being destroyed, disrespected, or somehow otherwise hindered by undocumented immigrants, would this not insinuate that "our culture" (or “our language”) is better than one that might be brought by immigrants? The position that the culture of those with this attitude (tends to be white people) is somehow better than other people's can be seen as a racist position. That would be called cultural racism.

So while the minutemen and their friends are singing “This land is MY land, this land is MY land,”* I'm saying no one owns this land, and if anyone should leave it's the people who don't love all others as equals.

See also:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/pluggedin/articles/1114reza1114monday.html

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/32105.php

*I didn't actually hear them sing this. It just seems like something they would sing.

"I didn't say that the Jews are inferior. I didn't even maintain they are a race. I merely saw that mixture of different cultures didn't work."
--Alfred Rosenberg, Chief Nazi Philosopher and Reichminister for the Eastern Occupied Territories under Hitler

Sally,
"No Racial Attacks" was posted in the site because non-Minuteman were likely to join our Cause for the event. It was not just Minutemen at this event. I assure you, there are no racists in MMP. Maybe this weekend you can ask the Hispanic, African American and Native American members of our MCDC group if they are racists. Or did you only see Minutemen as white people? Calling us racist is like me calling you a prostitute. You look female, stood on a street corner. Does it make you one?

You have the privledge of being an American. People that sneak into our county do not belong here and should be deported at all costs. We are a nation of laws and we demand that our governments on all levels enforce them. Once an illegal alien crosses our borders illegally, it perpetuates a whole series of other crimes while in the USA. Buying stolen IDs, stolen or fake SSN cards, getting a drivers licence, driving without insurance or proper registration, taking a job in this nation being an illegal alien is a felony, ramming planes into buildings. Not to mention the annual economic costs that the American taxpayer/citizens dole out in educational, healthcare and incarciration expenses.......thanks to open borders.

Good song: "This land is our land." We are happy to share our land, our nation; with those that care to take part in her prosperity legally.

See you Saturday. Happy Thanksgiving.....if you even celebrate that American Holiday.

Stacey O'Connell
Phoenix Chapter Leader
Minuteman Civil Defense Corps

It is always difficult to comment on the contents of an article that is obviously meant to "race-bait" anyone with an opposing view, but Sally's facts are about as fictitious as her phony recollection of last weekends rally by the MCDC and other interested Americans.

First, I really loathe people like Sally, as they have this disfunctional need to present lies as facts. As part American Indian (Chippewa), part French-Canadian and part German, I could hardly be called a racist. but, if being a 100% loyal American makes me one in Sally's eyes, there is nothing that I can do about that. If serving my Country, in and out of uniform makes me a racist - then Sally needs to say so in plain language. If exercising my Constitutional rights of Freedom of Assembly makes me a racist - then Sally needs to make this an issue as well. If supporting the Constitution and the Rule of Law is racist - then Sally needs to make sure that her readers are informed of that as well. You see your problem Sally? No facts - all mouth!!

As a participant in this event, I am a bit confused with Sally's recounting of all of the facts. Indeed, her spirited description of the events she writes about must have occurred elswhere, as I, having been present at the rally for the duration, have absolutely no recollection of any of her described events having occurred. To be sure, the Lady from the neighborhood watch was especially spirited in her vocalizations to the people present, but Sally would be hard pressed and grossly untruthful to now claim that her discriptions were honest then or are truthful now as she has presented them. Frankly my dear: You are a liar!!

I am more than cetain that you believe that what you write for public consumption is the truth, but you dillude yourself. The truth is based on facts - and the only facts that were truthful last weekend are that Contractors were breaking the law and that Illegal Aliens were more than willing to assist them. The Facts are the Facts and the Truth is the Truth. Neither you nor I can change that reality.

Now if you wish to continue nurturing and cultivating untruths - that is your problem and the consequences of such a decision will have to be borne by you and you alone. Be mindful of the fact that words do have meaning and that what you say and write amounts to a reflection of your personal honesty and integrity. Judging by your arguments and your conclusion re last weekends rally - you are not an honest person and you lack any idea as to what integrity really means. In plain language (English) - you are a junky journalist in love with whatever power you perceive you have on issues you understand nothing about!

You can - for whatever value and worth you find in it - stick the MCDC in the eye and discredit the concerns of American citizens, but you are duty bound to remember that you are not writing just for the sake of writing - you are carrying a little piece of history in your hands and it is your job to make sure that it will represent the facts and not your personal prejudices.

We who have stood on the front lines of battle, fully understand what our Founding Fathers faced and suffered at the very beginning of our Independence. We the People of the United States of America can with sufficient clarity and humility - recall their statements and the events of their struggles some 225 years ago, and it is this that we are attempting to Preserve, Protect and Defend. Contrary to your argument that we are a Nation of Immigrants and many cultures - you are sadly mistaken.

WE ARE A NATION CONCEIVED BY AMERICAN BORN PATRIOTS AND DIVINELY INSPIRED BY OUR CREATOR. AND, OUR CULTURE IS UNIQUELY AMERICAN!! NOT HISPANIC. NOT GERMAN. NOT ENGLISH. NOT AMERICAN INDIAN. NOT ITALIAN. NOT ANY ONE SINGLE ETHNICITY OR RACE OR CREED! UNIQUELY AMERICAN WITH THE TEXTURE OF THE WORLD. Again - sadly, you do not, would not and are not willing to understand and appreciate this kind of PASSION AND NATIONAL PRIDE!!

I have sponsored - happily - three Foreign Nationals in my life. One from Poland and two from Mexico. Without even knowing what our backgrounds are - you branded everyone of us - racists!! You took it upon yourself to brandish your race-baiting mentality and to infuse that scurrilous and offensive technique in an article that is more of a condemnation of you than of us!!

I will be back this weekend and I will - as a Proud American and as a Proud Veteran and as a Proud Retired Civil Servant - stand my Post for Duty, Honor, Country. And yes, I will remind every contractor and every individual seeking the assistance of Illegal Alien Labor - that they are breaking the law and actively contributing to the destruction of our Constitutional Republic.

I am personally offended by your deceptive recollection of last weekends rally. You need to be reminded - every moment of every day if need be - that the American People are not responsible for the impoverishment of any Illegal Foreign National now present - or on their way - in the USA. And, in the specific case of Mexico - we are definitely not responsible for their Drug Lords and Official Government corruption which when combined with each other - are the only sources that can be associated with causing the desparation and the frustration of the good people of Mexico.

LAWLESSNESS AND POLITICAL CORRUPTION IN MEXICO ARE THE TWO GREATEST ENEMIES OF THE GOOD PEOPLE OF MEXICO!! THE AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THESE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE HELL BENT ON EXPORTING THEIR BRAND OF DEMOCRACY TO THE USA!!

In the words of every good Marine - Semper Fi - and we are!!

Sally

As always your lack of ability to use the proper term shows your ignorance of an issue. I have never heard once that the Minuteman organizaiton was against legal immagration. You seem to forget these are illigal aliens. By law they are not suppose to be here. You are so quick to identify the racist actions of others and at the same time you use a term that says you even know who my mother is. I believe your statement was: " I guess the SOP is a bunch of BS just like their claims that the MM SOB's are not racist." To use that term "SOB" you would falsely accuse my mother of having dog like behavior. I am not angry with your ignorance, I am saddened by your inability to realize this country is a country of rules that are fair for everyone and when we use selective law enforcement we lose. I have fought overseas to make sure you have the freedom to write and say what you want to, without reprisal. All anyone asks is that you spend time looking at both sides of an issue so you can be more informed and not be embarresed by your lack of knowledge. The good thing is you have time to become more educated on the issue and see how this illigel movement will affect even you.

Tom Atnip (MSG ret.)

: Azcactus@aol.com

She makes no sense. I love how she states how they are illegal but yet we are racist. She should read the definition of racist and then re write her piece. Also, when we as citizens excercise our right to protest against, the whales, companies, or government we are not racist, BUT when we excercise THAT SAME RIGHT IN THE SAME MANNER, to protest againt an invation of human beings in to our country and against illegal activity, then we are racist because it has to do with #1 HUBAN BEINGs and #2 their from MEXICO. This lady doesn't know what she is writing about. Our Constituion grants us the right to protest against anything, or anyone, and if it against a person/human being, we as U.S. Citizens are being discriminated against if people like this lady continue to accuse us of being racist just because we excercise our Constituional Rights. I think she needs to buy a dictionary and look up the word for Racism and read our Constitution. And who as the Constitional Rights but the Citizens of this Country not the Illegal Immigrants. These groups fail to understand that the same rights that protect them do not apply to the illegal immigrants to have illegally entered this country, illegally work , illegal get paid without taxes being paid, illegally obtain identification to work, illegally drive without insurance, etc...however, groups like this seems to forget what is happening and want to discriminated against We the People and it is MY country and Your Country but it is not THEIR country.

This land is your land, this land is my land
From [the] California to the [Staten] New York Island,
From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf stream waters,
[God blessed America for me.]
Azcactus@aol.com wrote:

It doens't say MEXICO or Illegal Mexican Citizens or Illegal Aliens or Illegal Immigrants.

Thank you very much.

[God Blessed America]
This Land Was Made For You And Me
This land is your land, this land is my land
From [the] California to the [Staten] New York Island,
From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf stream waters,
[God blessed America for me.]
As I went walking that ribbon of highway
And saw above me that endless skyway,
And saw below me the golden valley, I said:
[God blessed America for me.]
I roamed and rambled and followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts,
And all around me , a voice was sounding:
[God blessed America for me.]
Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing --
[God blessed America for me.]
When the sun come shining, then I was strolling
In wheat fields waving and dust clouds rolling;
The voice was chanting as the fog was lifting:
[God blessed America for me.]
One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple
By the Relief Office I saw my people --
As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if
[God blessed America for me.]

Ummmmm...Let me get this straight..The Minutemen(Who I believe are American citizens) are invading Phoenix.Yet the day laborers(illegal aliens)who shouldn"t even be on American soil are the victims of these racist Minutemen SOB"s....Ummmmmm...I don"t get it..What am I missing here?
Sally dear...There was a famous line in the movie Cool Hand Luke and it goes like this...."YOU NEED TO GETCHO MIND RIGHT!!!
Steve D

Audio
by Differant Type of Journalist Wednesday, Nov. 23, 2005 at 10:29 AM

Modern day writing journalists usually record their interviews on digital recorders,to have proof of what the parties said.Next time Sally should record of what people said and post on AZ IMC to prevent further arguements of what really was said.

Well, Sally picks and chooses the rights she wants to apply. The freedom to speak her mind on sites such as this, but no one to insure the territorial integrity of the nation that grants her those rights.

These kind of people can't be reasoned with. They don't understand that this nation is based on the rule of law. When you have an unorganized clusterfuck for immigration laws they think they can maintain the nations bill of rights while letting the entire population of the world in with no regard to criminal background checks etc...

Laugh at these people. Oh yes, they will throw out their tried and true monikers, as they do to anyone that disagrees with them.....racist, bigot, homophobe etc....

The only good thing is that more and more people are starting to see through their shit. They know their agenda and what to expect to be called if they disagree.

They destroy themselves at election time beause of their craziness and then can't understand why they lost. They blame it all on some worldwide diabolical plot to destroy them when it never occured to them that there is a HUGE nation outside of San Fran and New York that think they are nuttier than squirrel shit.......

you all are giving me too much credit. i'm not a journalist.
certainly people have different versions of the truth. this was how i see situation. i've heard plenty from the other side. mine is an opinion that la voz probably wouldn't even express because they have to be "unbiased". i'm biased, sure. because i'm motivated by love. i don't determine what people's rights are based on what some (dead) white rich men or their gods determined. i see the anti-(illegal) immigrant folks as motivated by fear, not by love. otherwise they wouldn't be harassing people. and they WERE harassing people, especially at the first protest.
none of my commenters wanted to address the points i brought up regarding scape-goating or cultural racism, they just wanted to complain about being called racist or try to teach me about how bad illegal immigrants are (using stereotypes, i might add). thanks but no thanks.

"Love.....Love will keep us together"......captian and teneal. Cant get it out of my head now.

I wonder if the 3000 people that died on 9/11 thought that love would protect them from terrorists.

I wonder if when Officer David March of LA County was shot in the head by an illegal alien (who was deported many times prior) thought about love as a way to defend himself. By the way, the Mexican govt still refuses to extradite that murderer to the USA....because they love their countrymen enough not to send them where they face the death penalty.

Love: the Minutemen love their nation (made up of dead white poor men we call 'forefathers') enough to stand up to our govts and demand they secure our borders. Allowing illegal aliens in by the thousands daily is unacceptable.

We love our nation enough that we vow to defend her to our death if it ever comes to that.

We love our nation so much that we demand that it obey the laws of the constitution.....you know the thing our dead white poor forefathers made up. So, when will our govt defend her borders?

Love, if the illegal aliens we protest against loved their nation, they would go home and fix her. Love your nation enough to make her strong, safe, viable. Love her enough to stop the corruption, the drug cartels, the racism against indigenous peoples in Mexico.

Yes, Love will keep us together....as one nation....a nation of laws.

dear stacey,

i'm not sure why you think i consider love a defense against violence. don't confuse me with the people who think hugs will get us anywhere with ending the war.
and love doesn't mean concern with one's own people. that's a gross representation. you can call it that, but that's not my definition.

you know that it was once legal to rape and kill slaves, right? there have been many laws that i'm sure you wouldn't agree with now (although maybe you would've back then). it's all a matter of perspective. that's why you have to think outside the box. i'm not concerned with what's law, but with what hurts people.
you think i'm not concerned about my fellow u.s. citizens because i will oppose your fight against illegal immigration? this is another problem with perspective. you obviously think that illegal immigrants are the reason things are not going so well for people here. well, i happen to think it's not their fault. it's the fault of our government, our corporations, and the mexican goverment and their corporations.

you would probably rather stand up for bush than an illegal immigrant. let's see- bush is in favor of the temporary worker program. this is because he profits from labor being exploited. so do you. people, illegal immigrants and citizens alike, suffer through horrible working conditions (unsafe equipment, pesticides, chemicals, etc). do you care about that? what about the labor laws that are broken in our country everyday (white collar crimes)? what about the ones being broken by u.s. corporations everyday in other countries? what about my dad possibly losing his job because the CORPORATION is moving to another country to exploit its cheaper labor (not because of immigrants coming here).

why don't you get out there and harass the corporations who exploit labor, and the goverment officials who allow it? why don't you take pictures of police brutality and migra brutality and poor jail conditions and men who beat their wives, people who threaten to beat up my friends for being "fags"... i could go on and on.

but i see through you. you're not concerned with anything other than people from another country trying to take part in the privileges we have here. you're scape-goating. how about seeing the bigger picture?

There have been some interesting comments, views and opinions expressed on this page. I have, for the most part, enjoyed reading what has been brought up by Sally's article. I would begin my response by thanking Sally for sharing her thoughts on this particular Minutemen gathering, biased as they may have been. As she herself states, she is not a journalist and I would encourage people to remember that in their future comments. Also, I would remind you, fair reader, that there is no guarentee of non-biased reporting on Indymedia, as is made evident by the comments on this very page. If you care to read non-biased reporting--or at least view a source that strives for that sort of thing--you should check out wikinews.org or wikipedia.org. Both of these projects are open-source and strive to report facts in the neutral point-of-view, something that is equal parts noble and difficult.

As for the comments on this page I would like to respond to a few statements which piqued my interest.

To begin, the discussion on racism should be expanded to include it in all forms. I am willing to believe Minutemen who claim that the individuals within their institution are not racist. However, I also understand that racism is an institutional practice which I--as a white, heterosexual, able-bodied male--benefit from everyday, unconciously and unwillingly. This sort of institutional racism is inherently difficult to dismantle as its participants are often blissfully unaware of its existence. The actions of the Minutemen--which I am grateful for, as they raise awareness around these issues, and can even agree with, on the principles of dismantling a broken border policy--do work to support this sort of institutional racism. "How?" you ask. By demanding papers from people assumed to be undocumented migrants they are perpetuating the idea that skin color determines socioeconomic status, upon which this nation has operated for its glorious 225 years.

For a case in point, we should look at Stacey's comment that, "Once an illegal alien crosses our borders illegally, it perpetuates a whole series of other crimes while in the USA." In the English language a gender-neutral inclusive pronoun should be "they," not "it." "It," as a rule, is reserved for non-human subjects. Undocumented migrants are, most certainly human, to refer to them otherwise is a disservice to all sides of this issue.

On a further semantic note--in response to Stacey's comment--Mexicans and Canadians and Costa Ricans, even Panamanians and--by some accounts--Greenlanders can claim to be American. After all, they do live on the American continents. I believe that by "American" you were referring to people living, documented, in the United States of America. A trivial point, in this country, but valid as the majority population of the Americas would agree.

It is good for the Minutemen to ask the government to abide by its own laws, only allowing in those who should legally be in this country. It is also right for the citizenry of this, and any, nation to ask its government to allow into the workforce migrants willing to occupy the jobs manifested by that very government's economic policies. As it stands this legal option for immigration is a pipe-dream at best. To attempt a stemming of the flow of undocumented workers across the border while doing nothing to the address federal and international policies which create this situation is fool-hardy at best. In economic terms, as long as there is a demand for cheap labor, there will be a supply from somewhere. If the people of this country are above the building of their own homes, growing of their food, raising of their children and cleaning of their own filth, that supply will come from outside of our fair nation.

Mr. Bruning, I begin my response to your comment with a tip of my hat, it is a noble person who can devote their well-being and livelihood to that which they hold sacred. Your service--as well as that of all those who have served our nation--is foremost in my mind as I write: thank you. I am, however, saddened that you feel it necessary to "loathe people like Sally," who, like you is merely exercising her Constitutional rights to free speech. I commend you for exercising your right to assemble, for it is our greatest tool with which to combat the machinations of tyranny and fascism. I do believe though, sir, that Sally--as well as you--is upholding the rule of law and the Constitution of the United States of America, which allows its citizenry to petition the government with redresses and grievances. In plainer terms, the rule of law must be determined by the people and--perhaps in your view, unfortunately--Sally happens to be a person as well as you and I.

For further explanation of how the actions of the Minutemen as well as The United States of America can be viewed as racist while their participants and perpetrators claim non-racist intent, please review my third paragraph. It is, I understand an opinion and you are free to disagree, but that does not alter its validity.

Furthermore, everyone lies, it is one of humanity's defining characteristics and most valuable survival tools. I mean, what would happen to society if everyone spoke the truth all the time? The truth, therefore, is not always the truth, as it is subjective. But, I digress into philosophy.

I would encourage you, Mr. Bruning, to heed your own advice and "remember that you are not writing just for the sake of writing....and it is your job to make sure that it will represent the facts and not your personal prejudices"--your prejudice is showing.

Your comments about our "Founding Fathers" are true, "from," as Obi-Wan Kenobi says, "a certain point of view." The architects of the Constitution of the United States of America were predominantely the second-generation of European colonizers. You seem to be reiterating promises made to the American people during the time of Manifest Destiny that expansion is our divine right. While you may feel this in your heart, I warn you sir, that it is folly to assume others feel and believe it as strongly as you. For history shows, time and again, that unchecked expansion is a figment of our collective imagination. Also interesting to note is that the same people who originally promised Manifest Destiny also claimed California to be an island inhabited by Amazonians and Griffins. Here it seems important to remember that all truth is, in some way, un-true.

Once again, I am glad that the MMP is exercising its First Ammendment right to assemble--as well as your acknowledgement of our nation as a constitutional republic and not democracy--but I must disagree that contractors who rely on the labor of undocumented migrants are not contributing to the destruction of this nation or its constitutional republic. In fact, I would go so far as to say that those contractors and other employers are, in fact, acting in accordance with the capitalist system they are colluded into operating within, which holds the bottom line as the highest ideal.

Again, I find your comment "that the American People are not responsible for the impoverishment of any Illegal Foreign National now present....in the USA. And, in the specific case of Mexico - we are definitely not responsible for their Drug Lords and Official Government corruption which when combined with each other - are the only sources that can be associated with causing the desparation and the frustration of the good people of Mexico," to be accurate under very specific conditions. No, the citizenry of this country, on the whole, are not responsible for the woes of any country.

Perhaps more accurately, though, the people of this country are guilty of allowing their government to participate in treaties and international organizations which have contributed to the current global capitalist colonialism which has produced this global situation. It is, after all, the wealthiest 20% of the international population which is actually "at the wheel." Before this injustice is remedied undocumented migrants and terrorism will be a reality, regardless of how well-armed our populous becomes or how big the walls we build are.

Mr. Atnip, you were right to be offended by Sally's comments, with regards to her needless vulgarity. Kurt Vonnegut once wrote in "Hocus Pocus" that "using vulgarity merely gives other people a reason not to listen to you." I hope that Sally can take that point to heart. Your statement, sir,that "this country is a country of rules that are fair for everyone and when we use selective law enforcement we lose," is true only to a certain point. I would argue that while our nation's laws aim for egalitarianism, they are, historically and currently, not "fair for everyone," but biased toward the aforementioned upper 20% of the population. See, as evidence of this, the civil rights movement of the past and the movement for equal marriage rights by gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered individuals across the nation, as well as the trial currently being deliberated in federal court concerning American Indian sacred sites. It is interesting that you mention "selective law enforcement," as it would seem to me, based upon the demographics of our federal penitentiary system, that "selective" would be a very appropriate adjective to attach to law enforcement in this nation.

To quote Lord Robert Baden-Powell, founder of the Boy Scouts, "the ledger of a nation cannot be said to be in good standing when the percentage of its population dedicated to military, law enforcement and incarcerated in prisons outweighs that involved in churches, education and good will." This, my friends is certainly the case in this country, I urge you to re-evaluate our national priorities.

Michelle, to you I would like to echo Mr. Atnip's request, "that you spend time looking at both sides of an issue so you can be more informed and not be embarresed by your lack of knowledge." I feel that your rage blinds you--and let it be said that is my opinion, open to debate. You are correct that the Bill of Rights guarentees citizens the right to assemble. National law, however, does not grant citizens the right to demand identification or immigration papers of each other. That is a right reserved for our law enforcement officials and business people for whom it is pertinent--federal institutions, bars, places of employment, and the like. I respect your right to assemble and make this transgression of law visible, but I cannot abide you to erode due process in the name of law.

It is interesting to note that the Woody Guthrie song you have altered is inherently anti-border, anti-establishment, and ultimately anarchist. I find it peculiar that in your zeal to envoke the name of your creator and right to this nation, you neglected to remove the line which is the most contrary to your views. It is this:

"Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing --
This land was made for you and me."

Pardon the suggestion, but,if you use this particular version of the song in the future you may wish--as does the public school system--to remove these decidedly egalitarian lines so as to alter the oxy moronic nature of the verse.

Mr. Donahue, thank you for noticing this particularly amusing contradiction in terms. But, along the lines of my previous statement to Michelle, you may want to re-evaluate the movie you quote to prove this point, as the sub-text of "Cool-Hand Luke" tends to lean against what you are standing for. It is, in my humble and wordy opinion, about the inalienable right of every human to be free in body and mind. But, I suppose that is my particular take on it.

Sally, you would do well to take Differant Type of Journalist's suggestion to heart.

Sandman, I can only assume by the title of your comment that you served in the armed forces--Marines, I would venture to guess--but your opinion stinks of hypocrisy and vulgarity. You say that "These kind of people can't be reasoned with," but it is "these people" that you need to reach to become a more effective movement. I agree with you--albeit for different reasons--that immigration laws are convoluted, unfair and unreasonable, but alienating people like Sally, especially with the sort of hurtful language you chose serves no purpose and hints at a certain xenophobic prejudice which outsiders accuse the MMP. Remember that there is a huge world outside of this nation that thinks we--the USA--are, euphamistically speaking, cracked like the eggs I ate for breakfast, absurd like "Alice in Wonderland," and more crooked than a conduit bent to 90 degrees.

I conclude by thanking you for your attention, your conviction and your pride. Please, work for what you feel is right, what is sacred to you, and what is necessary to your survival as you struggle beneath the yoke of responsibility to yourself and fellow humans. Understand, however, that I--and every other autonomous human on this fragile planet--can do nothing but the same. I encourage you, fair reader, to contact me with any open-minded discourse at the e-mail address I have provided, please send hate-mail elsewhere. May you be blessed with health and happiness in all your endeavours.

See you in the streets.
Quagmire.

At least everybody can Hug for Peace,and Love, out in the streets November 28th,instead of Hugging for $$$$ that Kyl & Bush will be doing inside.

Quagmire:

*The "it" i was referring to was the 'act of crossing illegally', not a person. I dont refer to humans as 'its' , sorry for the confusion. However I do refer to my dog as an 'it'.....but he seems to like it :)

*American Citizens are from the USA/or naturalized. Mexicans, Canadians, Costa Ricans, etc.....are not Americans. Their citzenry belongs to their nation of birth. Yes, trivial...wasnt worth mentioning. However, there are those that Ive met that actually think that because the American SW was part of Mexcio even for a few years.....many years ago.....that it still belongs to Mexico. They forget what agreements and wars were effected to give us 'Manifest Destiny"......even Salvador Reza refers to Phoenix as "Aztlan". Dream world.

Sally wants me to focus on all the ills of the world, but sorry dear I dont have time. Im interested in illegal immigration in our nation, thats wat I focus on.....and all that it intails here. Correcting another nations poor policy......sorry but Im more effective in my own community.

Capitolism has limits, those limits are called laws. Contractors go beyond those limits when they brake our laws by hiring illegal aliens. Sure, supply and demand, low cost-high profit....thats whats its all about....as long as its done legally. What the small minds dont understand 'in the bigger picture' is that by mass hiring of illegal aliens, that we also incur the cost of educating their children, the costs of their medical expenses, the loss of income tax revenue, etc. So, we have cheap labor, but high price of healthcare, car insurance and we keep complaining about the education system. Wake up.

Yep: Id stand up for BUSH anyday before I stood up for an illegal alien that sucks our system dry. Bush has his faults, and setting freedom in place for other nations isnt one of them. Now that I think about it, Id stand up for an illegal alien before I stood up for a member of the ACLU anyday. My experience with the ACLU is that they are a bunch of young college kids with no life experience who seem to think that the ills of the world are all due to the USA, that God doesnt belong in our nation, they think borders is a place where you buy books, and they like to smoke pot in the desert while watching Minutemen watch for border crossers. Oh, and that Border Patrol on the American Border with Mexico is 'militirization' of the borders....per the new ACLU flick coming to a theatre near you (thank God it was free). What kind of numbnut....never mind. Wont go there. Yberra...your documentary stinks. Stick to fighting for someones rights.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Turkey awaits.

Stacey, I offer my apologies about my misunderstanding your previous comment.

I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree about the term "American." As you have noted, an American citizen is naturalized or born in-country. An American, by definition, is someone who lives in America. America refers to the continents of North or South America, of which the USA is but one country. Ah, semantics, the field for people who sweat the small stuff.

As an educator I'd like to say that we could educate every illegal alien who crosses the border, their children and their children's children were our nation spending half the amount of money on education that we spend on our military. But, it seems that spreading capitalism, faking intelligence and catalyzing anti-American sentiments around the world is more important than educating our children--please take that with a grain of salt, as I take poetic license with my opinion.

Azatlan refers to the indigenous nations who inhabited this land previous to European settlers. The "wars and agreements" you refer to were waged and come to by Europeans, not by the people who originally inhabited the land.

I can agree that reverting to a pre-European world is fantasy. However, that does not mean that the idea is invalid in an open discourse or that it cannot offer avenues to more egalitarian communities. To simply dismiss it is to dismiss the lives and livelihoods of those, right here in our nation--the Hopi, Navajo, Tewa, Dine, Hohokam, White Mountain Apache, etc., etc.--who are descended from those who have had their land taken and their existence ignored.

I would be careful about alienating those "kids" whom you claim were "smoking pot" on the border with the ACLU. It is easy to dismiss those younger than you for their "lack of life experience," but many of them are people of conscience, like yourself, who are on the border because of a sense of duty to their country and due process. On the whole the major disagreement between the MMP and ACLU is one of tactics. To simply demean them is to eliminate a powerful and active group of potential allies in your struggle for sane border policy.

I can sympathize with your comments about the strain placed upon education, health care and public services by undocumented migrants. But, while I can agree with many of the motivations behind the MMP, I cannot agree with the methods. As I have stated above, the problems the MMP is attempting to tackle are systemic, not local. While not perpetrated by the government of the USA exclusively, our country, more than any other, benefits from these unbalanced treaties and policies.

We can agree that as American citizens we have some sort of voice in the direction of our Republic. Yet, no matter how many guns we pick up or undocumented migrants we remove back across the border, we will not be able to stop this problem unless we make it clear to our elected officials that we want to treat the cause, not merely the effect. That requires education of and action from the citizenry of our country. Unfortunately so much of said citizenry is content to watch other people's lives on television than get involved with their own.

Enjoy your holiday and may only good come of your endeavours.
Quagmire.

Quagmire - it is so said that you can't put your thoughts into fewer words than you did. Appearantly no one is as GOOD AS YOU. You seem to find fault in most everyone who posted here today. You make me dizzy in your rendition of your praises to our fellow posters yet from one side of your mouth you praise and out of the other you critisize. I will pray for you and all others that don't want to see or speak the truth about what we as American's are being put through. We as a nation are being discriminated by both the illegal immigrants and we are being let down terribly by our Government. At a critical time in history . I'm sure you will find your little twrist to my words and I'm sooooo looking forward to your reply. But remember, I hope that you and Ms. Sally someday realize that Love is something that has nothing to do with Law. Love is an emotion and the Law our the rules that govern man. No one said that the Minutemen don't love people, the Minutemen hold true to the laws of the land and the protection of the citizens and our boarders. Somewher you all missed it. You don't want to agree because it may go against your circle of friends or associates, thats okay.

I appreciate your attempt to write all you did. Just make it shorter next time. And don't bash everyone, it's not good manners.

Ms. Sally, if you love so much, start loving your fellow Americans. We are in a crisis in this country and your loyalty and love should be for country first.

I am glad you are a compassionate human being, but have you waited for 8 hours to get into an Emregency Room because it was packed with illegals who wanted care and did youever get hit by a car that was driven by illegals who had no drivers license, do you find it OKAY that they don't pay taxers and YOU DO?? Just food for thought. This has nothing to do with LOVE, its about LAW and they are breaking the law with every move they make, first being entering our country illegally.

Lastely, to answer your question about the law and police. To let you know the Phoenix police are unable to do much about getting a handle on the problem here. THey have written orders to not call INS or Boarder Control, they have written orders to not even call INS for an infraction of federal laws that are broken. It goes on and on. So, if we the people just say nothing, we are allowing this passive aggressive invation on our country to continue. And you think this OKAY????

To give the illegal immigrants "diplomatic immunity" by the Police having so limited laws to even do anything to them, yet the American Citizens who live in Phoenix are charged with crimes and held accountable when the illegals get away with so much. How do you prove who one is from the other when they have false names and papers????

You think this is racist, give me a break. Go look up the definition. Did either of you? Go do it and write back.

American's are being discriminated against and we as a society are being diluted in our funding, our hospitals, our schools, our police, in ever facet of our lives. To live , Live Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, well, the illegalls are getting that and we as American Citizens drownding in this mess our government has created but can't figure out how to
stop to momentum long enough to make a change.

We as the People will makes changes as the Voting Booths and in our Protests. More and more American's will see the light and one day in our history we will fix this problem.

Good Day.

As people where commenting on this issue,Mike Malloy(Air America Radio)did his once a year event with his radio show of having only 13-17 year old youngsters call in and comment on what's on their mind.Almost all of them commented on the Environment/Global Warming!Not one person brought up the issue of Immigration.Guess this issue is only imporant in Arizona & California,and young people in these two states don't care,or didn't bothered to call in.

Get real! When you were a teen ager or in in your mid 20's were you interested in politics or the girls/boys? I didn't pay much attention to the issues and I doubt the kids these days are either unless you give them some info about it first. That is not a very good statement that they don't care about it. I think they are not informed and if they were I think they would be very intersted to know what their future will be like and their childrens future in a society that caters to the illegal immigrants who drain their schools where their future children will be attending , or tell the kids that the Police can't help them because there isn't enough of them beccause the illegals don't pay taxes and there is no revenue to hire more police and tell the kids that they will put in jail and fined for driving without insurance when they can drive or if they are driving already but, if an illegal get caught, they most likely will be set free or told to show up for court and never show because they usually go by fake names. I seriously doubt that if you inform these kids , young adults of what is going on, they will not agree with what you typed. I think they will be very interested. We need to get the word out to all youngsters of what the reprocutions are if this dosen't stop and our government doesn't start to protect its citizens, city's, states and the government as well.

Sally for your info....I'm the lady you typed about.

First she was telling the media that most criminals are Mexicans, and then she was yelling, arguing, flailing her arms, and chastising the workers for not knowing the pledge of allegiance. I overheard a minuteman saying something like “She doesn't know better, she's not a minuteman”. I took this to mean she doesn't know to keep her racist anger to herself. The minutemen want an image that does not appear racist nor frantic.

Sally, 20% of our crime in Arizona is from the illegal immigrants from Mexico, if you watch television and see the news broadcast on who is shooting who, figure it out for yourself. It is not a racist comment to speak the truth. If you can’t handle it, don’t create this energy of racism which didn’t exist at the protest from me. If you overheard anyone saying anything about me, let me tell you something, our Consitution grants me the right to speak my mind. Your discriminating aginst my civil right to excersise my opinions and you turn my fact based replies on thinking that you can publish a statement that states “I don’t know better”? Let me inform you, I know more than you claim according to what you write. No I am NOT A MINUTEMAN. You got that only part right. The part you also missed was that I didn’t make ANY racist comments. Not ONE. And you claim that the fact that I was outspoken, that was racist anger???????? Let me tell you another thing, I will NEVER KEEP TO MYSELF AN INJUSTICE THAT IS BEING DONE TO ME OR MY FAMILY OR MY FELLOW AMERICANS. I spoke the truth, I received many handshakes to thank me for speaking what so many wanted to but are afraid to for the backlash from people just like you that want to through out the RACE card. LOOK UP THE TERM of Racist. It is from one group feeling more superior than the other. Our government nor the people of America claim to feel more superior. We have maintained the one fact that we want the illegal immigrants to be held accountable for their actions of being here illegally. They have broken the law of the land. They are not citizens and they drain our economy. Our hospitals are overloaded, our schools suffer, our American Born Citizen children are being diluted among all other services that the illegal immigrants demand they receive because they are in our country illegally. What part of this don’t you understand. Sally, I was not frantic, I was passionate, I was clear, I was concise and I was heard by the American people who applauded these statements because they were all TRUE. Maybe the truth hurts and I’m sorry but, you got me ALL WRONG.

or racialism is a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another. Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequality between races.

Here you go Sally, read and absorb. THis is the true definition. Americans are not under the belief that they are superior and if standing up for an invasion of illegal immigrants to our country is considered being a racist, I would have to disagree according to the definition. The inequality is focused on the American citizens and the children of our citizens . Our land is being drained and diluted due to these illegal immigrants and you say we are racist.

Food for thought.

Sally, another thought, what if I just broke into your house with my entire family of 200. We just used your appliances, furniture, ate your food, etc. You try to call the Police but the police are ordered to not interfere because it has nothing to do with drugs or human trafficking or house drop sites, there fore you will not be getting any relief from the Police because it is a Federal issue that I’m in your home with all my 2oo family members. You call and ask for help from your government and city officials and no one helps you. You cry out for help because you can’t live like that. But in your crys for help your called a racist because you are not loving your new guests like human begins. You have people calling you racist. Now, does any of this sound familiar?????

Then my family members have babies and babies and we use your insurance and your policies and you pay the bills. We can’t fee the babies so you pay for the fomula and diapers and then eventually, some move out and you pay for their subsidized homes and apartments. If you complain, your called a racist! Does that sound familiar??????

I think you get my point…..

NOBODY LISTENS TO AIR AMERICA! THATS WHY THEY ARE BROKE! Last weekend there was a freak walking around claiming to be with Air America.....he had long dark unkept scragelly hair, unshaven, dirty clothes and seriously long and dirty finger nails...........maybe he was from Air America. Scumbags.

Read the following article and let the facts speak for themselves. Who is committing the crime???? It's not a racist statement it is fact.

Assaults on border agents double in '05

Mike Madden
Republic Washington Bureau
Nov. 24, 2005 12:00 AM

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1124assaults.html

Look at the statistics on whoo is commiting these crimes. It is not racist to say that the crime over the boarder from Mexico has doubles against the MBoarder Control.

Assaults on border agents double in '05

Mike Madden
Republic Washington Bureau
Nov. 24, 2005 12:00 AM
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1124assaults.html

Oh, Minutemen, how about those drug smugglers in uniforms? excerpt:

"Now that [the minutemen are] gone, though, we need the border guardians to come back and address Thursday's revelation that 21 members of U.S. military and law enforcement agencies, current and former, were implicated in a cocaine smuggling ring.

The sting brings to light a side of illegal border activity the Minutemen apparently overlooked. Illegal drug importation is not limited to smugglers in jeans and sneakers driving drug-filled vehicles stolen from Americans."

more here.

I really wish you who respond to my posts get your facts straight on who is posting them. I am a citizen and please don't accuse the Minutemen of not knowing what is going on.

I guess anyone who disagrees with you is a Minuteman or a Racist. Unbelievable!!

Remember 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Remember these are our boarders and we must protest the integrety of our perimeter.

first, i forgot, but i was going to apologize earlier for using the term SOB. i was trying to be humorous with all my acronyms, but i inadvertantly insulted some people's mothers, whom i know nothing about. (no one's addressed the point about the SOP though. interesting.)

although i orginally felt a little bad about how i portrayed the "frantic" woman ("unknown," who i think is also posting as "michelle"), but i think readers of the comments can make their own conclusions. how i portrayed her was a little toned down from how i really felt. i heard her giving an interview and i literally felt like puking. i'm so serious. what she said made me feel so disgusted. i can't remember everything she said besides pretty much insinuating that most mexican immigrants are criminals. one thing i remember (that didn't make me sick so much as amazed) is her warped perception of the u.s.' history of immigration. i believe i heard her say that everyone who emigrated here was willing to speak english!!

speaking of english, i was reading an interview with a puerto-rican american and he was talking about how the u.s. government tried to make english the official language of puerto rico. ?!!??!? but the people wouldn't let that be made into law. in the court of law there though, the spoken language is english. i thought that was interesting. most people who don't know anyone who is puerto rican don't give puerto rico a second thought. but it's a very interesting example of the hypocrisy of u.s. morality and law. the people there have no representation, but their president is bush. most of them speak spanish, but their court of law is in english. they don't want the u.s. there, but they have no choice. talk about fair. and the fbi (or the cia?) assasinated one of the independistas there recently. something to think about.

i think it says a lot that stacey and others are not willing to look at the bigger picture. why wouldn't you want to get at the root of the problem? not having enough time is a pretty poor excuse since you have time to spend hours staring at immigrants. i think that looking at the bigger picture might make you realize your complicity in the way capitalism creates a situation where undocumented immigrants are forced to come here to get paid better and that people are willing to pay them to do the job here. does it make you feel uncomfortable? maybe you realize that you can spend less on your produce or your wendy's salad because tons of immigrants are here to pick it, getting paid shit wages, being exposed to horrible pesticides and having no bathrooms around - a situation which few citizens would endure.

so a solution? besides holding the land-owners and government officials and capitalism accountable, maybe start growing your own organic produce. or how about a solution for michelle's problem with healthcare. how about a bunch of us learn some healthcare skills so that we're not so reliant on the government or others' fortune and we can help others. i am. and i'll gladly share my skills and knowledge with others. there are all sorts of possibilities for solutions. you want to prove me wrong about you scape-goating? here's your chance.

Sally good luck in your endeavor to spread your racist comments about Americans who stand up for what they believe in.

I will use my energy elsewere where there is room to solve this issue within the proper channels. This is a waist of time trying to make you see and understand what the citizens are experiencing in this community.

God Bless America

The Arizona Indymedia editorial collective will hide posts that promote racism, homophobia, sexism or other discrimination or that engage in personal attacks

You also misquoted me. You state that "she said besides pretty much insinuating that most mexican immigrants are criminals" I said all ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are criminals and the ILLEGAL IMMIGIRANS FROM MEXICO ARE CRIMINALS. They are here illegally. You missed the boat Sally.

ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL THEY ARE ILLEGALLY HERE.

What makes that right?
How can you say your okay with that?
If they were here LEGALLY through the proper channels, this would not be an issue.

You just don't get it!

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that I was engaging in an intellectual dialogue amongst adults. I must have been mistaken. Since this thread has devolved somewhat seriously, because of, apparently, what I have said in an effort to stimulate that discourse, I will be removing myself from it.

A few thoughts before I go. Mchelle, I do not disagree that you have offered the dictionary definition of racism. While you have it out, you may want to look up the difference between a boarder and a border, you seem to be having some confusion. Sometimes the dictionary is to narrow in its interpretations. Lexicographers would be forced to agree, that is why there's always new dictionaries. I was offering for discussion the idea that most people who don't identify as white view racism as a set of standards which are ingrained in our culture. You are, of course, free to disagree.

Please believe me when I say to you that I see myself as being better than very few people. If I come off as pretentious in my writings, it is only because I like to write.

I offer my apologies if you feel I have been two-faced. That has not been my intent. I have attempted to write a sincere and polite disagreement. What it comes down to is I honor your right to disagree with me and I hope that you could do the same for me.

Thank you for keeping me in your prayers, you will be in mine as well. I agree with you that this situation is bad for all involved and I wish that you would be willing to see me as an ally in this struggle, but I fear that will not be the case.

Anyone interested in an open discourse about these issues may feel free to e-mail me at the address provided.

You will be in my thoughts and prayer.
Quagmire.

Everybody involved in this issue can get away from your Keyboards Monday,and voice your opinions in person,2:30PM in Tucson(Bush's first visit),then 4PM in Phoenix,with preview Protest in Phoenix at the Biltmore entrance at 2:30PM

What the Minutemen probably don't understand about their movement is that it exists for the ends of the ruling class. To identify immigration as the source of problems in America allows the ruling class, capitalists and the state, to direct attention and blame away from their systematic exploitation and oppression of people of all colors. From the war, from environmental catastrophe, from increasing fascism and systematic racism, we are supposed to believe from the Minuteman that the real cause of our problems are the poor people of color crossing the border, encouraged by the capitalist market that values cheap and powerless labor. It points blame at those on the bottom of the ladder rather than those at the top, at the powerless rather than the powerful, which suits the powerful just fine. Of course they're motivated by racism, because there is no other explanation that would justify such a distorted view of America's problems. Their problem isn't so much with the legality of immigration, but rather they feel that "American culture" - read white culture - is being subverted by people of color. By trying to limit the debate to legality, they wish to deflect attention from the racist and xenophobic assumptions that motivate their position. Of course, in order to support racism, it must be given some kind of other justification, usually one of self defense. Even Nazi's understood this, and always framed their position as defending themselves from internal and external threats to the national security. It should be noted that the Holocaust was within the law as they had written it. The minutemen are really just puppets of the ruling class and should be challenged by all of the poor, the working class, and people of color.

Some people are actually concerned about security on the border FOR THAT REASON ALONE. It isn't to protect some all white nation or other such blather. Some of us don't want some misguided arab coming across the border with a radiological bomb and detonating it in or neighborhoods.

If you don't think that is the realm of possibility then you are a fool.

Will simply securing our borders stop our country from continuing to be a target of terrorism for the reason that the government feels it appropriate to bomb countries for power struggles over oil and such gains? Will securing the border stop the government's dealings with terrorists for power gains? If you missed the news, the CIA trained bin Laden. So while I see your point about wanting to secure the borders to secure our safety against terrorism, in fact the U.S. has been terrorizing others for a long time and continues to do so. I believe Sally pointed out that the Minutemen are scape-goating- the evidence being that they are unwilling to address the larger issues. And I see that as well, and won't see it any other way unless I see efforts to address the government's hand in the misfortune of others and ourselves.

As the previous poster wrote:

"And I see that as well, and won't see it any other way unless I see efforts to address the government's hand in the misfortune of others and ourselves."

I want to point out that you are completely correct in your statement that our government is completely in control of what is happening and for the misfortune of others and ourselves." Thank you for pointing out that we are also victims. Thank you. Everyone seems to say everyone else is a victim and you are the first one to acknowledge that we too are the victims.

The Minutemen can not solve the problem alone. They are at least one effort among others that are trying to help because our Government has let us down.

Let us Pray we find the right course to fairly guide us all.

I see that our friend - Quagmire - is somewhat of an Educator, perhaps in the Prescott area. Quagmire, your vanity is showing.

Such a long and tedious bit of diatribe to demonstrate that you have an obvious fear of mingling your academic self with the reality of everyday strife. Displays of an ex-parte demagogue are never taken seriously, even if they somehow create the illusion of being intellectually grounded in fact. Your obfuscation is nothing more - or less - than a relapse into a more desirable time in your past and the attempt to "dazzle" us with what you are trying to pass off as philosophical sophistication is frankly - immature. However, your attempt at being benevolent is appreciated.

You quietly refer to yourself as being an educator with a belief in - and an inference that education would somehow be better served if we threw more money at it instead of throwing it at defense issues is an position which proves itself to be absurd. Having graduated several times myself, I couldn't disagree with you more.

Our K thru 12 children and young people are learning absolutely nothing but garbage and our College age sons and daughters are learning even less. Of course more money would benefit ineffective teachers at every level - after all, tenure is such a worthy ambition and one that must be fulfilled no matter how much it costs the useful idiots in our society, aka, the tax payers. Indoctrination is not cheap!

I do want to credit you for your brevity. I am feeling generous only because my two daughters are educators, but as I have relayed to them - often, I give you the same advice - crawl out into the sunshine once and awhile. It will cure your cynicism. It may even induce you to rejoin the rest of society.

I close - reluctantly, with these words from Benjamin Franklin (one of the old dead white men):

"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack - 1735.

It was indeed sad to see someone write so many words and say absolutely nothing of importance. Being out of touch with the world is one thing, but staying out of touch tells me that you have some serious issues grasping reality.

>This land is your land, this land is my land
>From [the] California to the [Staten] New York sland,
>From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf stream waters,

and we stole most of the southwestern states from mexico.

first it was texas where american who were asked by the governmetn of mexico to come to texas and help kill off native indians overthrew the mexican government and formed their own country which then became a state in the USA.

next we invaded mexico and stole arizona and new mexico from the mexican government when the us marines invaded mexico city and forced them to give the USA that land.

at about the same time americans were sneaking illegally into the mexican state of california and they over threw the mexican government there and like texas became an american state.

yes this land is your land and my land but we stole it all from the indians. first the english stole most of the east coast from the indians.

then we bout the louisiana purchase which the french bought from the spanish. of course the spanish stole it from the indians.

and flordia we bought that from spain after they stole it from the indians.

saying that the land is ours is bullshit. we stole it from the indians.

nobody

Youre right, you are a nobody. With nothing to say.

Saw Michelle on the local TV news tonight with your Rally today.You're cute.Are you single? I'm ready for your Hug at the Hugs For Peace Rally this Monday afternoon/evening on 24thSt. :-) :-)

PS:'Nobody' is a victim of Arizona education system,he needs help,but in denial.

Regarding the statement that the Phoenix Police Department has issued written orders for its Officers not to contact INS, or the Border Patrol this is not true. I have 1 relative who is retired from the PHX PD with 33+ years service. And I have another relative who currently has 18 months service time with the PHX PD. When a PHX PD Officer arrests (a)suspect(s) for an Arizona Revised Statutes Felony and/or Misdemeanor violation(s) and citizenship status is that of an illegal immigrant, then Immigration Customs Enforcement is contacted. What PHX PD Officers aren't doing is patrolling the streets to round up the congregating illegal immigrants day laborers near your local Home Depot. When PHX PD responds to and effects an arrest for examples; murder, rape, sexual assualt weapons vioations, domestic violence, aggravated assault, criminal dwi/dui, breaking & entering, tresspassing etc. and the arestted person(s) cannot or will not (refuse to ) provide name, date of birth, address, and SSAN, or immigration status including OTMs is in question then ICE is contacted.

Also something to think about: Illegal immigrants not only take jobs away from LEGAL U.S. CITIZENS they increase the amount of criminal activity (other than illegally entry) within the U.S. There are by conservative estimates 13 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. and liberal estimates are as high as 32.5 million. Approximatly 10% of the actual known U.S. Citizen population commits both violent and non-violent crimes. So that means illegal immigrants are committing between 1.3 million and 3.2 million crimes within our borders; NOT including the first crime of illegal entry. Do we as U.S. Citizens want to pay the price physically and/or psychologically, and/or emotionally, and/or monetarilly for these 1.3 to 3.2 million additional crimes perpetuated against us by illegal immigrants? So, Sallydarity when your paid off car is stolen, stripped down for parts by illegal immigrants, and 6 to 8 weeks later your auto insurance company gives you a fair market value check of 35% , you know who to thank! When a loved one in your family is beat up and gang raped by a group of illegal immigrants...well, "they were only here trying to seek a better life." When someone very close to you is brutally murdered by an illegal immigrant who flees to Mexico to hide under El Presidente Fox's policy of no extradion to the U.S. for capital punishment crimes...guess "they were in this country only to seek a job.",huh? Finally, what should be a crime is when legal and illegal immigrants depress wages and take employment away from U.S. Citizens. If any of the previously mentioned crime scenarios happened to Sallydarity and ilk, I believe their views of illegal immigration would change extremely rapidly. Of course Salidarity and ilk would never admit it.

If you are interested, email me at azcactus@aol.com and I will give you a copy of the PPD Operational Order 1.4 regarding illegal immigration. It details how ICe will NOT be contacted in most cases, with exception to some felonies. Even when tresspassing or not able to positively ID a suspect, ICE is NOT contacted. Ive seen it in person between cops and illegals at our day labor rallies. It doesnt happen. The order even says in cases of felony DUI, that ICE does not have to be contaced. Contact me, Ill email you a copy of the order. =SO

DEPORTIM, your argument is reminiscent of Nazi Germany, in that you label immigrants criminals to mask your inherent racism.

Today I saw for the first time Mexican day laborers standing on the side of the road in Phoenix outskirts waiting for work while nearby men held signs that read "Illegal immigrants take our jobs" etc.

As my Mexican American husband and myself drove by the men we blasted our Mexican music and while I flipped off the minutemen, my husband gave the minutemen the peace sign.

Although my gut tells me these minutemen protesters are "borderline" racists, I can understand to some extent their point of view, not in a racist sense, but in the sense that there is an issue here, an issue of overpopulation, not enough housing or work here in the US. I worry about the quality of life of Mexican illegal families here in the US. Although poor in Mexico, they have support from familiy and community that they don't have here, most have their own houses or land in Mexico, and here they just struggle.

So I do think more has to be done by our government to stop illegal immigration, the govt. is to blame, not so much the Mexicans, when you blame a people, that's when you start to be "borderline racists".

And your message is so typical of the left. Whoever disagrees with you is racist/bigot/homophobe/environment destroyer/misogynist/blah fucking blah blah blah.

No wonder you guys keep losing elections.....

Oh wait they were stolen. I forgot.

I don't get how you can say wanting an end to illegal immagration is racist. I have no problem with people coming here for a better life but you need to do it the proper way. In no way shape or form is that racist. Now I agree that big biusiness and our government is to blame but so are the illegals who come over here. If you come here illegally your going to have a illegal way of thinking while your living here. These people do not come to this country to embrace it , but to exploit it!